Grief, Loss & the Search for Meaning

Grief is one of the most universal human experiences — and one of the most misunderstood.

In this episode of Psychology & the Soul, Dr. Shirley Impellizzeri and Kellee White explore Grief, Loss & Meaning-Making through both psychological science and spiritual insight. Rather than rushing grief toward positivity or quick explanations, this conversation honors grief as a natural and necessary human process.

Together, they discuss the psychology and neuroscience of grief, why the well-known “stages of grief” are often misunderstood, and how the nervous system processes loss. They also explore the deeper existential questions that grief can bring — including identity, meaning, and continued connection.

Topics in this episode include:
• What grief actually is and how it affects the nervous system
• The neuroscience of grief and why loss can feel like physical pain
• Complicated grief and trauma-infused loss
• Spiritual meaning-making after loss
• Common phrases that unintentionally invalidate grief
• Practical psychological and spiritual tools for integrating loss

This is a grounded, compassionate discussion about grief that does not rush the process or bypass the pain — but instead explores how healing and meaning gradually unfold over time.

Join us live for this thoughtful conversation and feel free to share your questions and reflections in the comments during the broadcast.

Psychology & the Soul brings together psychology and spirituality in conversation — exploring trauma, healing, relationships, personal growth, and the deeper questions of being human.

#SpiritualHealing #GriefHealing  #PsychologyAndTheSoul #RelationshipHealing #EmotionalHealth #NervousSystemHealing #ConsciousRelationships #kelleewhite #drshirley

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Hi, everybody. I'm Spiritual Media, psychotherapist, and author Kelly White.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

And I am Dr. Shirlene Pelazzeri, and welcome to Psychology in the Soul. So glad you guys are here with us tonight. My goodness. And Shirley, we have a big topic tonight. We're going to be talking about grief. Yep. Grief, loss, and meaning making. Right. Which is so important. Absolutely. We both deal with grief. Oh, yeah. Gris with our clients and patients. A ton of bricks, and it could be it doesn't just mean it means the ending of something. So it doesn't just mean death. Right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, grief is one of the most universal of human experiences. And I would say that it's probably one of the most misunderstood. Yeah. Because we live in a culture that wants to resolve grief quickly. Like, okay, it happened and keep going. Just get over it. And I really believe it's because it makes people, some people, uncomfortable, you know, with the subject. And they don't know what to say or they don't know what to do. And they expect when there's a grief, you will become inspirational or you will somehow make sense of something. But grief doesn't necessarily work in any of the that way. It doesn't move on a schedule. Absolutely not. You know, because grief isn't a pathology, it's not weakness, and it's not something to fix. And some of we'll get into a little bit later some of the dumbest things someone can say to someone who's lost, you know, a loved one. Really, all you need to do is just sit with them. Just be. Just be. Hold the hold the space for them. And you know, when you're not sure what to do, saying a platitude doesn't help. What really helps, and we forget to do this. And one time I remember a very good friend of mine asked me this when I was having a really hard time. And I remember he said, What can I do to help? And that is, it's a simple question, but it really, really helps the person, you know, even if they say nothing, just sit with me. Exactly a word. But it's better than they lived a long line. We'll get into all those, yeah, you know, all those things that we say out of wanting to comfort the person, so it's not out of malice, but you know, it grief is a natural psychological response to loss. Yeah, it is. And and spiritually, grief is something that we do not bypass. You just don't you can't will yourself through it, really, because it's something that I want to say all of us are going to experience. And and we're not even actually tonight, we're not going to talk about you know anticipated grief. But I have a dog that's got cancer, and you know, there is an anticipation here of something that will happen. So it's it's interesting with grief because it's a universal experience. So when we sign up to Earth, when we say, Oh, we're oh, guess what? I'm going to Earth School. Oh, you've been accepted? Yes, I am. Okay, well, part of the, you know, the curriculum, if you will, uh, is grief. And we are all going to experience it. And you have to honor yourself as you go through grief. You have to honor yourself. So this episode tonight, we're going to be talking about and understanding grief. So psychologically and spiritually, without rushing into it, because we can't rush into the meaning before it's ready. Yeah. Well, that is almost, I mean, we can we can look at that like a psychological bypass when we want to rush to the meaning before we actually just sit and feel it. Right. You know, different than a spiritual bypass. It's kind of a psychological bypass. Right. You know, so true. Yeah. Because as I said, you know, grief is an emotional response to loss. It's very healthy to feel it, even though it is so hard to sit with it. And that's why, you know, sitting with it with someone that can just hold the space that doesn't get kind of uh nervous with you just crying or just feeling your feelings is a wonderful thing to do. And of course, you know, on your own as well, too. But you know, it's it's the loss is broader than just death, as I said a moment ago. We dream we grief, of course, the death of loved ones, but also divorce. There's grief in divorce, there's grief in a lost future. You thought you were going to do something and you have to shift, you know, in identity, you know. Well, let me address that for a second with identity, because that's really true. Uh, in my case, I had a traumatic brain injury, and that was a complete um loss of sense of self, actually. And so I grieved my old life for quite some time, actually, because of who I was, and I had no idea who I was going to become. So the other thing with not just the death of loved ones, but animals, you know, too. Very important to remember that. Absolutely. You know, but I'm glad that you said that about identity. Yeah, you had to grieve who you knew yourself, you know. The loss, it's called loss of sense of self. I I wrote my thesis on it because it's so important. Yeah, it was I when you so there's all kinds of grief. This one I didn't even know existed. Oh, I didn't exist. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm kind of going through it now. Grieving who you were, I just turned 60. And okay, it's another, it's another that's right. Uh no, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

That's you're right.

SPEAKER_01 6:15

It's another decade you're looking at who I knew myself to be to start to, and we can't, you know, there's no room where there isn't a lot of room to in acceptance when we don't grieve the old and we just kind of want to bypass that, you know, because it it does require grief. And you know, I went to uh Cabo to celebrate with my daughter and my sister, and and at dinner, my daughter asked me the most interesting question that I'm still thinking about it, you know. Oh, those daughters, they do stuff up for us. I know, I know, but it was so lovely. So the next day I thought about it, of course. You know, you know me, my left brain. When she first asked me, I was like, I don't know, you know, and I didn't know, but then I thought about it, so I answered it the next night at dinner. She said, What did you learn in each decade? Oh, great question, and that can help with the grief. And then so what it prompted me also is what do I want this decade to look like? Right. And then it spiritually, we come here to learn and to grow. So you'll learn something zero to 10, you'll learn something 10 to you know 20. I mean, yeah, you learn something. You I love that you would look back and say, What did I learn at this period? And what am I looking forward to learning? Exactly, exactly. Yeah. So we also grieve health changes. I mean, I know I went through a lot of that in the last year and a half.

SPEAKER_00 7:31

You really got walloped.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

I I sure did.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

And you tell me this year is the end of my walloping year, and I'm about to enter less. Out of that Saturn return, 58, 59, 60, 10 people tend to get walloped. Yeah. Oh my god, did I ever? Uh, career transitions. We grieve career transitions. And we're seeing a lot of that now, Shirley. A lot of people are changing careers now, or their careers have ended, and you know, we're gonna see a lot of that. Does that play out in your practice? Do you see that? It does, it does, and it's not about, you know, we don't grieve because because what's coming isn't exciting. What's coming can be very exciting, right? But we're we're grieving the shift, we're grieving the change. Right. You know, another one that's really large now, probably because there were so many people born in the baby boomers, but looking at social security and how does that work? Yeah, like grieving, like all of a sudden, we're there's a whole new world we have to figure out, you know, and then the whole technology piece. So there could be grief along. You know, I I missed the 70s, you know. We were talking about Yacht Rock today, you know. I went to the Yacht Rock concert on Friday night. It was so fun. I knew every song, but yeah, I'll never forget how I felt the first time I received my ARPRP membership, right? It was a shocker. It was a total shocker, and I just had to kind of sing with it for a little bit, you know. Um, the first time I had to use the sensitine sensitive toothpaste, like it's my favorite. My mother use, you know. I thought, oh my god, I've become my mother. Um, so you know, it's strange relationships. We grieve those. So that would be relationships that are no longer working, and you've you've been broken up and or whatever. And yeah, there's there can be a lot of grief, a lot of grief around that one. Yeah, exactly, exactly. You know, the childhood we didn't have. Right. We grieve, you know, what I do in my work a lot is the parents we never we never had and we're never gonna have. Grieving that idea of a parent that I needed, but I never had doesn't mean you can't love your parent, and it doesn't mean you have to be angry at your parent, but you're also grieving what you didn't get. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And um, you know, so grief is the nervous system adjusting to the absence of everything that we just talked about is there's an absence there, and so it's the nervous system adjusting to that. Um isn't that an interesting way to view this? So it's physical as well, it's emotional, it's physical. Oh, yeah, yeah. I was just talking to someone today in a session that said their pain, the pain in their heart, they're grieving a relationship, the pain in their heart was so big, so it was so somatic. It was so they could feel the pain in their heart. Yeah, you know, and I just sat with them while I invited them to just feel it and put their hands on it and imagine that they were holding their heart, you know, and having a conversation between mind and body, mind telling the heart, I'm gonna protect you now. Wow, you're safe, you know. So those are all important things to do while we're grieving, whatever the grief may be, to notice how it feels in your body. You know, and then of course we're all we're familiar, most of us are with the well-known five stages of grief, you know, uh the denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance. You know, and they were never meant sometimes. We think that if we go through one, then we go to the next one and we don't go back. They're never meant to be linear, you know, they're emotional states, not steps.

SPEAKER_02 11:06

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

I remember when my mom died, I went straight to anger. Yeah, and I stayed there for at least six months. Yeah, yeah, it's the damnedest thing. Again, I was even surprised. Right. There, I mean, and anger is a very common one, and people then then throw in guilt. They feel guilty because they're angry that someone passed away, and it's just such a natural. You're angry that they're no longer there in physical form, you're angry that you know it's okay. Let's not add another emotion like guilt to the whole thing, right? Um, grief doesn't progress naturally or neatly, it comes at the most inopportune times. Well, it comes naturally, not in not in a special order, it comes at any time, at any order. Absolutely, and anything can remind you a smell. You walk by a bakery and it reminds you of your mom as an example, a color, you know, your childhood house was yellow, and you see the color yellow, and you get a little bit of a feeling, you know. Uh music, of course. Oh, yeah. Oh, music for sure. You know, Shirley, there's another grief, and somebody wrote me this question and they want me to discuss this, and how your relationships change after a death of a child. Oh, so you've been you have a child, the child passes, but you've had, you know, the friends and the this and how do the relationships that you have that have changed, I have chills when I even think about that. Yeah. But people that you thought were friends maybe might fade away, they might not be able to, you know, handle the grief, or they might not be able to handle any of it. But she this gal wrote to me and she said, Thankfully, new people have come into her life that stand that have stood stood behind her or beside her and helped her move with her grief. And in the case like this, I mean, if you are in this situation, have the parent, if you can, who's lost the child, tell their stories, share stories of them, because that's one thing that is a wonderful thing to do. They love to talk about their child and and in the in the wonder, most wonderful ways to say it. So those secondary losses that were completely unexpected can be wildly sad and real grief. Right, right. I love that you're saying that because it is so important to let somebody talk. We have a fear that, oh, I don't want to bring it up because I don't want to remind them. They're already feeling the grief and actually being able to talk about it and feeling safe with someone that that they know can handle them talking about, especially the death of a child. I mean, my goodness, Kelly. I am I'm so glad that on the other side I wasn't um um you know optimistic enough to think that I could handle that in this lifetime. Yeah. Oh something that I've yeah, it's the it's getting your PhD on earth. Yeah, yeah. It is the the biggest, uh, the biggest type of loss that can happen here, you know. Yeah, um at any age, really. Yeah, it's unbelievable. There are days when grief is gonna feel manageable, and then there are gonna be days that it, I swear to you, it will feel as raw as the very beginning of it. And that fluctuation is completely normal. My own experience has is this, and I tell a lot of people as I work you know as a medium and a therapist, I work so much with loss, and my experience has always been that the first year for me of a of a big loss is a blur, there's just like a blur that happens for me, and the second year almost is more challenging and harder than the first year because the awareness is palpable. There's an I have such an awareness of this, you know. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes when, you know, and the first of anything is also so hard. The first holiday, the first birthday, the first Mother's Day, if it's a you know, yeah, that just know that the first of everything is gonna be it's gonna be so, so difficult. Yeah. You know, neurologically, grief activates many of the same brain brain centers as physical pain. So you actually feel it, it feels painful. You know, and as I said before, the the hurt of the heart can be the most difficult part because you're feeling it. It's not just in your mind, it's a real broken heart. It really is. Yeah, yeah. Loss is also experienced as a threat to the attachment connection. All of a sudden you feel that that attachment connection, like parents, you know, you you feel whether you get along with them or you, you know, they're not your favorite people at times, there's a tethering, there's a sense of thousands of. Oh, for sure. And so when they pass, that tethering is kind of gone. So it's so that can be part of the grieving too, that you've lost that tethering, that attachment. And have you heard this one when this happens? So mother, father die, both die. Oh, now you're an orphan. You know what? I heard that from somebody, I almost slapped the shit out of them. Me too! That is so stupid. It's I just no, you're not right. You're just a person whose parents have passed on. Yeah. I mean, but it's that untethering, but when they I hear that, it just I just don't like the I don't like the um labeling of something like that. What it means, not so much the labeling, but the idea. I mean, to me, an orphan is a little kid that doesn't that grew up without parents, you know, but but they're still a little kid, so there's empathy. Yeah, of course, you know, there. I don't view it as like a yeah, I don't know, it kind of pisses me off. That's yeah, me too. My left brain getting pissed. But you know, when we lose someone significant, the brain continues to search for them. Oh, yes. Why some people, and this is your territory as far as spirituality, but that's why some people can hear their voice, expect them to walk through the door. You know, they dream vividly about them. I do believe also from a spiritual standpoint, those are messages, and and I'd love for you to talk a little bit about it. Oh, absolutely. And well, and the other one that was big for me is going to the phone to call them. And my mother will have been gone. Surely it's hard to imagine, but it's been seven years, and in April, it'll be seven years. I know, I have it in my calendar. Right? I mean, it's just hard to to fathom.

SPEAKER_00 17:21

And so I literally the other day there was something that happened, like, oh, I gotta call. It it caught me off guard.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

You know, it just catches you off guard.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

But yeah, actually, you might hear their voice because that they may be right standing right next to you saying their name right there. And the dreams about them, of course, are visits. Those are real visits. You know, I remember when my dad passed away, my grandma, my um step stepmom Judy had this wild dream.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

She had a dream that my dad was a trumpet player, and so she had a dream that he walked through the house after he had passed. She knew he was past, and she said, Lee, there you are. And he looked at her and he big smiled, and he picked up his trumpet case, as I told him my dad would, and walked out the front door.

unknown 18:09

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

I'm like, yeah, that sounds right.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

That's right. That is so funny. Well, remember your sister, your sister saw her dog at the at the foot of her bed. She has this dog that she just loved. She loved Henry. Yeah. And after he passed, she saw him at the foot of her bed. And I'll tell you another thing. She's called me over the weekend. She had a dream with my grandmother. And my grandmother passed away in 1977. So you can imagine how shocking that was. And my grandmother was staring at her and watching her cook. Well, Carol just started cooking. So I'm sure my Jewish grandmother was like, No, we're not doing it that way.

SPEAKER_00 18:48

We're going to do this instead. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

But keeping an eye on her, I thought that was really sweet and wonderful. So funny. It's funny because I, of course, believe in all of this and embrace it. But remember when you we started working at the office and you would say, Hey, did your patient just this and this? And I'm like, Yeah, how do you know? And oh, I saw them. And I, okay, Kel, I don't want to see them. Okay. Yeah. I don't want to see them. I know they're around, but do not want to see them. I'm not sure how I would react. Well, some people, you know, you might have a heart attack because it can be quite alarming. But then the other way is sometimes it's so peaceful. You see them and you just it's it's an extraordinary experience to have. Because I remember the first time you shared that with me, I asked, How do you see them? And of course, I was going to Casper the Ghost. Do you see them? Sometimes on occasion. Really? Not as often now. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Not not very often, it's like Casper the Ghost, because I don't want to have a heart attack. You know, I'm getting older too. Um and it's scary all of a sudden because it's it's like out of the you know, context. That did happen to me in 2020 when a dear friend passed away of COVID and he showed up. Uh I was stunned. But it really could have caused me uh physical harm. You you said to me in the most matter-of-fact way, no, I see him like I see you. Yeah. Yes, that is true. But now it's really third eye. I, you know, I get a strong sense and I see him that way. Okay. So yeah, it's it's just different. And the other thing is a different vibration now. Now it's all about, you know, I I hear I'm really clear audience, so I can hear a lot that goes on that they want to tell me. So everything has grown and transformed for me, as what happens in your medium. That's what happens. You grow into it, and the other things happen. So initially on you might see something like that, but yeah, not too often. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And things, you know, I mean, things that become a habit from years and years, like you said, you know, even to this day, you still thought, Oh, I want to tell mom about this, you know, it's such a habit. The nervous system doesn't immediately understand permanence, you know. Oh, isn't that an interesting perspective? So the nervous system doesn't necessarily understand that it's permanent. No, no, that would be too overriding, it would override your system. It would, it would, until then you being able to talk to her, like you just said, that habit of until the habit starts to weaken because you don't do it as often. Yes, yeah, yeah. I and I talked to her in a different way, right, right. I'll never forget. I was talking to you on your way home from the office one time, and all of a sudden your dad's music started to blast in the radio. That's true. I mean, you know, again, we could do a whole show on messages. I mean, how we start to receive messages, and you know, there is no such thing as death. There's the loss of the physical part of it, but the soul goes on. I mean, it's psychology and the soul. Don't forget that piece. But this is where spiritual spirituality can actually help a lot with this. And it's not by denying the pain. When I see somebody that they come to see me, and for mediumship, I am literally holding their heart like this. When you're a medium, you are holding the heart as you describe, because it's Such great loss, and there needs to be such great caring for this. So it's more by allowing the connect, the continued connection in a new form. So they'll, you know, it's called evidential mediumship, you know. So I'll give them some evidence that it's there or this or that and give them a lot of information. And even then, they might be in stuck, they might be like stunned or shocked. And I remember when my mom died, uh Mavis, I was very fortunate that Mavis Batilla was one of my dearest friends and mentors, and she wanted to do a reading for me, and I was in no space to hear it. I was in so much pain. And James, James too, James and you know, I had the best in the world wanting to help me, but I was in, I had to shut down. It overrode my system. Wow. The grief overrode my system. I shut down, and I often will say to people, they'll say, Is it time? Should I have a mediumship reading, medium, uh reading, reading with you, like, you know, a week after or two weeks after? And I'm like, oh my God, no. No, because let's give it a little time. And you know, it's not just for the other side, but it's frankly for you.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Because you the grief in one week is different than the week in week two, which is different in week three, which is, you know, and so sometimes people will sit with me and it's too soon.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

And that I had worked with a woman once who was really pissed off. I said, When did your mother die? She said, Two days ago. And um, and I stopped her and I gave her money back. And I said, Wow, I know the anger that comes with this, I get it.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

This is I don't know who talked you into doing this, but here's your money back. You can see me in a few months when you get worked through some of the anger here.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

Now, I wonder though, because I've always thought about that, isn't it nice to right after it happens when you're so in shock and in disbelief, isn't it nice to get a message with themselves?

SPEAKER_00 23:57

It depends on what stage of grief you're in, it depends on what stage you're in. So if you're I saw her immediately, have you ever seen somebody where you know that they're just pissed off, like so pissed, I was like, this is not gonna work. Spirit's not it's not that the mom wouldn't be there, it has nothing to do with that. It was it was her mom that died, and she was just so it depending on what the state is, and the other thing is depending on you know, like where they just where they are with everything. Sometimes just a good, you know, grief session with me would be better, and then of course that that would kind of hold the heart enough for them to be able to receive messages to hear them, and then the other thing is people will, in this case, they will I I record it, they have no idea what I have said because they're in psychological shock, actually.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

Yeah, you know, and psychic shock. They would I'll say, you know, John, I don't know what John, you know, John was their father. That happened to me once when I was, you know, had uh reading too soon. I'd never have a clue. Wow, wow, yeah. I think you're so in shock you can't hear it. You just cannot, you cannot. Yeah, so you know, that's but again, that's where spirituality can help is not by denying any of the pain, but allowing people or allowing them to understand that there's a connection and a new form.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

But again, Cheryl, timing is everything. So premature spiritual explanations can totally invalidate psychological processing.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

Wow, interesting, interesting. Yeah, oh yeah, wow. So, you know, well, most grief gradually in integrates over time, and the integration doesn't mean you never feel it. One of my patients said something, she was grieving her mother, and she said something so insightful, she said, you know, you never stop grieving, you just feel it less often. She was so right on, and when you feel it, sometimes it could be just as intense as when it first happened. So so true. And Cheryl, I have to tell you, I had uh two two in two years, I had lost two widows. Um, I say that because I had two clients, but I just loved them both so much that they had lost their spouses. And on many occasions when I work with widows, which I do often, um they are not in this place. This place was very different. Both I had two at the same time. Can you imagine this? And they both said like they just wanted to die, and that was it. There was they wanted to be with their spouses, no matter what. Cheryl, there was nothing, didn't matter how what I would have done or said, and so as a therapist and a medium working with them, I have you have to honor where they are. I'd honor that, and both of them I went through literally the entire time till one died, one spouse, one client died, and then my other who I became dear friends with, her name was Vicky, and I just adored her, loved her. She was you would love her, truly, she was so great. She was a huge fan of yours, but I knew she had to go. I knew it. It was not, there was not a damn thing I could say or do, or period.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

So I you so I learned that was a big learning curve for me. I learned so many things about that relationship that I had with her and uh her relationship with her husband. It was really fascinating.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I really I think what you're saying is to respect the process and respect how they feel. Yes, yeah, and again, a little bit of a child.

SPEAKER_00 27:41

Even if it's difficult. Oh, and it trust me, it was difficult for me. Poor Dawn. Poor Dawn. It was really difficult for me because I cared so much about her. But and she was young, she was younger than me.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

You know, I was like, whoa. Uh, but but I learned a lot from her that experience, and again, it's really meeting somebody where they are, and it was it was okay, it all worked out, yeah. And so the question I think is again, as I always say that I learned from Peter Levine, being curious. Why am I having such a hard time with this? To be curious about what's going on with you that you cannot, or have or having a difficult time accepting someone for where they're at. And it's a for me during that experience, I am such a saver. I thought I could save her, and she did not want to be saved. She didn't want to be saved. No, and she was very clear. And the other gal too, but she just did not want to be saved. And she said, Kelly, you can't save me. I I don't want to be saved. I understand. And that's what for me is that was a big one. Yeah, I had to step back and go, I and I I understand. I have to, I mean, I have to validate you, you know, hearing them. Oh, thank you. Putting your stuff out of the way and really hearing where they were and what they needed from you. That's I didn't easy thing. Oh Lord, that was a hard year. And in fact, it'll be one year she died on Mother's Day of last year. Yeah, and I was with my daughter when I got the call from her sister to tell me she had passed. And it was, you know, it was it was a hard one. Yeah, it was a big one. But I learned so much, yeah. As we do about all kinds of grief. Well, as you say, everybody's a teacher. Everybody's a teacher. Oh my god. Yeah. So sometimes grief can be complicated or prolonged. Well, let's talk about complicated. Yeah, yeah. So so sometimes when when grief becomes complicated, it could be because of sudden death. Sudden death's a big one. If you get that, yeah, that's a big one, sudden death. Traumatic loss, you know, how the person passed on. Uh unresolved relational conflict when you don't finish saying what you needed to say.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

Okay, so let's talk about that. There could be you have an abusive mother, you have an abusive father, you have a crazy ass sister. Oh, I'm just saying. Um, or you have any of the above, and you're, you know, in a fight with them, and then they suddenly die.

unknown 30:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:13

I have I have worked with that many times. Yeah. People will come to me and they have shame over it, or they have, you know, blame or guilt, or right. So then we have to process all of that, you know, that unresolved.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

And you know what? This is earth. We're gonna have when we go, I promise we're all gonna have unresolved something or other. Because this is just a state, uh Earth is a school of chaos.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Exactly. Yeah, thank you for saying that, especially yeah. Um, and well, and so what I tell people sometimes when they're when they have, let's say, a lot of times this has happened with a mother, you know, it's an adult daughter or son that I'm seeing, and mother's about to pass, and there's still a lot of anger, but the they can't work through it with the parent. So I tell them, do what will help you feel less guilty when they pass. So what would help you feel less guilty is to go visit them, even though it's difficult for you and you're still noticing anger. That's actually great advice.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

Yeah, do it what would make you feel less guilty.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

Exactly. Don't do something that's gonna make you feel you know, gonna add guilt. Well, I should have visited her more. I didn't, you know. Yeah, yeah. Right. I actually had somebody whose mother was borderline, Cheryl, and I said the same thing that you just said. I said, Well, look, it's see how you feel. If you don't go, are you gonna feel worse? If you go, are you gonna feel worse? She said, I'm gonna feel worse both ways. Yeah, and I said, All right, so what did you decide to do? She said, I decided to go. And then you know what the mother said to her when she got there?

SPEAKER_00 31:45

Oh my god, what get the F out of here? I don't want to see you.

SPEAKER_01 31:50

Oh, God.

SPEAKER_00 31:51

So let me tell you the sessions we had after that.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

Oh, I bet. I bet, but I guess, but to be honest, it was probably relieving to her because now she's guilty about not going because the mother picked her out.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

Exactly. That is exactly exactly. Thank you, mom.

SPEAKER_01 32:04

For being a dick and clean.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

You're right. Sorry. Can you imagine that that on the other side when you all get together as a soul group? You know what you said to me.

SPEAKER_01 32:15

Oh my God. I know, I know. It's yeah. Um, so when you have a lack of support and people who, you know, that can complicate grief. And so it's so important to ask for what you need. People on the avoid attachment side, like myself, have a hard time asking for help. And so it's so important to ask for what you need, ask for support, even just say I was feeling, you know, I was grieving and I just needed to reach out and talk to somebody. So even if it's making a phone call, you know, to not feel alone during because that can complicate, you know, or prolong your grief when there's multiple losses. Well, you know, Shirley, you and I have worked several times with that multiple losses one, you know, airplane accidents.

unknown 32:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

We've worked with uh client our patients for you and clients for me that have had had lots of losses. I mean, talk about trauma. Yeah, yeah, that's a big one. That's really complicated. I had my my lovely gardener. He lost his mother first during COVID, six months later, his father, and six months after that, his brother. Oh no. And so that's multiple. Oh, that's that's too much loss. Yeah, yeah. And sometimes I'll say that to somebody when that happens. I'll say that's too much loss. I mean, it just is. Oh, we have a it would override your system. Yeah. We you and I both have a very good friend who had many losses within a two, three-year period of time. It's it's uh yeah. Um, you know, complicated grief may involve a persistent yearning. Yeah, you know, for that person. For sure. Inability to accept the loss. Oh, it's a hard one. Yeah. Oh, any avoidance of reminders. I don't want to be reminded. You know, I heard somebody say that to me the other day. They said, I it's gonna be my mother's birthday, but I don't want to think about it, I don't want to talk about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. People who sometimes put everything away too quick because they don't want to be reminded. There's also the other side where people have a hard time, even years after shrines forever. For you know, shrines forever or cleaning up the closet, you know, yeah, yeah. Um, what can complicate grief too is what we just talked about intense guilt. I should have done this or I could have done that, or you know. Um, and sometimes it can feel like an identity collapse, just like you're talking about with your let's say you were married for 50 years and your spouse passes. Who am I now? Right. You know, it's so interesting. I saw this woman um on a TikTok, and she's in her 80s, and her husband just died, and she said she was looking at grocery carts. Like she would go into like Trader Joe's and look at grocery carts, and she'd say she would always figure out, oh, that person has you know family of three, or that person is this. And she said, I bet you people are looking at me because now I'm only shopping for one, and they see a wedding ring on, and they think, oh, they feel sorry for me. So I'm watching this going, I don't if I saw that, I don't know if I would think that at all.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

First of all, I never pay attention to any of that kind of stuff, but I think I would be thinking, um, what are you cooking tonight? Going the way I think. Yeah, oh, that looks interesting. I don't think I would ever think to think that, but I made a point of it. Is that something that is that something that you would notice?

SPEAKER_01 35:27

No, not at all. I wouldn't even notice it. Um, I'd probably say, see, she's not overbuying. I shouldn't overbuy. And I would say, ah, chicken breast, what are you gonna do with that? Right, exactly, even being the chef. So it has everything to do, you know, what we project onto others, you know, really gives us a window into what we're thinking about ourselves. Because even if somebody was thinking that, if that's what we believe someone's thinking without verifying it, right? Then just know, be curious about that, and just know that that's how you're feeling, that's what you're thinking. And so that may be something to then take into therapy or a grief, you know, support group. Right, absolutely. And Shirley, talk about grief overlapping with trauma. Well, it can overlap with trauma, especially if the death was traumatic. You know, if it was a car accident, if it was a you know, a murder. And so so now you have both that you're that you're working with, you know, and so it really complicates things. And so you just again you just take it, you peel it like a proverbial onion. You just peel it and you work little by little. Yeah. Yeah. If you're able to. If you're able to too. I mean, uh the the one of the really difficult ones is a car accident where someone passed away, but I stayed alive. Oh, that's a that's a big one. Yeah, that's a really tough one. Yeah, that's it. And when loss is sudden or if it's violent, like you just said, the nervous system will hold the shock in addition to the sadness.

SPEAKER_00 36:59

Can you talk about that a little bit about the body processing both?

SPEAKER_01 37:03

That's why it's so important to just notice the body. You know, I had a session um today. We weren't necessarily talking about grief, but we were just taking it to the body. The mind wants to go, well, maybe because of this and this and this, and go into go into intellectual, you know, rationalizing. Sure. I say, let's let's put that to the side just for a moment and let's just notice what you feel in the body. And you stay with it, you give it enough time and space, and that's how you can start to work with the shock that gets stuck in the nervous system as you're working with you know, the trauma and the loss and the grief. Because the body's got to process both. Absolutely, otherwise, it gets stuck in the body. Words are just words, words don't heal. They they can help, but in and of themselves, they don't heal. So there's grief therapy, there's trauma-informed therapy, there's somatic work that Dr. Shirley does. And the if you do any of this, it doesn't mean a sign of weakness. They're just tools to help you integrate. It's actually a sign of strength.

SPEAKER_00 38:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

How many times have I heard in my practice, oh my God, therapy is not easy? And I'm like, no, it you you I always validate the strength and the courage that it takes to sit in something that is so uncomfortable, and in this case, grief so painful. You know, it takes a lot of courage. It is certainly quite the opposite of weakness. Oh my god, certainly. And grief often will bring existential questions, which are you know my favorites when I get somebody I uh that comes to me about this, and the question, you know, could be why did this happen? So we can go down an existential road with that. I can talk about it from a spiritual lens of why this happened, and then I'll get, you know, what is the purpose of suffering? So I'll go into the you know spiritual realm of that, of why we come to earth, not necessarily to suffer, but it actually to release suffering. Um it's called detachment, and there's a whole thing behind that. So I can get really into that. Um, the other question I often get is where are they now? What are they doing now? You know, it's and then who am I without them? Who am I without them? Because again, that loss of identity. And these are not intellectual questions, they're more like you know, identifying things, and so often this this is why or when a medium uh would be, you know, be somebody would seek out a medium. And I just want to say if you're seeking out a medium, just be mindful of their background, you know, just be mindful of it because you might be in a vulnerable state, and so just be you know mindful of that, of who they are, and maybe look at some of their work. Yeah, yeah. What I love that you've always said, and I think James has always said it too, you never it's never about a negative message, correct, ever. It's a message that will help understand, that will help integrate, that will enhance and hold your heart in this situation, but it's but it's not about a negative message. So, and I can't even believe, but you've told me that you come across mediums who will who will give messages, I don't know if it's coming up in their own mind, about something like mean. I've seen it as they say, I've seen it. James and I were doing something once when we saw this, we couldn't believe it. So, do you believe that that is actually coming from someone on the other side, or is it coming from the medium interpreter? No, it's the medium and the projection and a and an untrained, uh, non-ethical, non-empathic idiot. Did I say enough? You did. You did I get that? Did I make my point? Yeah, yeah. Um, you know, meaning making is a psychological and I'd say spiritual process.

SPEAKER_00 40:52

Totally to make meaning.

SPEAKER_01 40:53

We shouldn't impose it because we shouldn't try to do that when we're not ready. It just emerges, you know, it truly just emerges. Research shows that people who eventually integrate loss often do so by reconstructing meaning, yes, finding a meaning, but again, that emerges. It's not about minimizing the pain, absolutely not. That is part of the meaning, right? You know, yeah, and grief will take you on that journey. Sometimes, for some people, surely, grief is a spiritual um awakening. Yeah, it can be done not all the time, but it can be because then you start getting curious, as you would say. You know, you get curious to where they go, what they do, and then you want to start reading the books, and so that can be a full spiritual awakening, and then all of a sudden their loved one who's past is their guide, yeah. You know, throwing books at them and all kinds of things that happen. So it can be that kind of a journey as well. Oh, I will never forget that has happened to me so often. Where, well, so often, I mean, it feels often because it is so earth, you know, shattering. Yeah. Where I'll just get the thought to go somewhere, and then all of a sudden I go somewhere and I see this book that looks interesting. And um, that's actually how I got to, you know, we talked about Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, who kind of was like the the person that started to make meaning from death. She did.

SPEAKER_00 42:15

She did.

SPEAKER_01 42:16

I just literally walked into a bookshelf and it was almost like I was being guided. And I saw this, it's a tiny little book on on life after. No, it's called On Life After Death. I have it here. Okay, it's a very thin, it's such an easy read, and all of a sudden, it all made sense. Who wrote that book? Elizabeth Kubrick. Oh, it is her book. Oh, yeah, definitely. She wrote uh an important one on death and dying, but on life after death, yes, excellent book. Excellent book. And she's you know, so so you sometimes, yeah, you're just guided. Absolutely. And I just want to mention that she works worked with David Kessler, or David Kessler worked with her. She's long past, but he worked. David Kessler wrote, I think, the six of the five uh ways of grief, the sixth one and making meaning. But yeah and we should put that up. Um, Jared, if you could put grief.com, because we are going to talk about that. Grief.com is a wonderful place to go to get healing if you are um in a space for that.

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Grief.com, David Kessler, he he really knows his his stuff here.

SPEAKER_01 43:24

Yeah, yeah. Support groups can be really, really important because many times when we're going through something, especially grief, we tend to without even realizing to isolate. And there is something so comforting, and and again, maybe not right at the beginning, you have to you have to be curious about what, but something so comforting about other people going having gone through a similar experience. Right, right. Oh, I have many clients that have met future spouses actually in grief groups. That's right. You were just telling me that. Oh, yeah, it's it's extraordinary. And um when that happens. And I always, you know, understand that the other side will can bring this to happen too, help, help uh facilitate that. You know. So uh, but so spiritual integration can include what one of the things that we can do is maybe a ritual. Like when my mom passed, I had, or any of my dogs that have passed, I have, you know, their stuff up, you know. I do. I just I have their I like a made up like a little place for them, you know. Um, so like a certain ritual or a prayer that could help, that could be spiritual integration, or um meditation. Meditation is great to help with this because the bonds continue. The bonds continue. It may look different physically, they're no longer physical there, physically there, but the bond is always there, the bond is always there for you. So it's um it doesn't oh, and there's a symbolic connection too that can be made too, but it doesn't erase the human ache, which is really what we're talking about, because grief and meaning absolutely can coexist. You can have grief and you can have meaning too. Yeah, yeah. That's an important distinction. Nothing that you do within the things that we're suggesting will take away the pain. So that's an important thing to know. It will just help you through it, but it won't take it away. Sometimes we have this thought that you know, well, I still feel the same, or that didn't help. You know, it's not supposed to help you feel less pain, it's just supposed to help you while you're going through the pain, like a ritual or prayer or meditation. So that's an important thanks for saying that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. So things to avoid, which we alluded to a little bit at the beginning, which are my pet peeve. You know, first of all, rushing acceptance, doing the psychological bypass, you know, uh comparing grief. Well, it's not as bad as my you know friend who went through. Oh gosh, that has happened. I've heard that one many, many, many times. Yeah, yeah. Minimizing loss. Well, you weren't that close, anyways. You know, that kind of you know, this how's this one, Shirley? You didn't like your mother anyway, right? Oh my god, have I heard that one so many times? Or using clichés, which is the one I can't stand. Well, they lived a long life. Oh my god. Can I fucking kick you now? Yeah, seriously. Yeah, who can that is so not because what what it is, what you're saying to the person is what's wrong with you that you're feeling so sad. Your mom was 95, you know, so you're adding to their grief. Oh, it doesn't matter how long a person lived, you know. Um, statements like they're in a better place. Okay, yeah, that maybe come later when the person is in a is in the integration phase when a person is making meaning out of it. Maybe that statement can can be a nice reminder, you know. Um, at least they lived a long life, is the one that I was talking about, or everything happens for a reason. Oh my god. That again, spiritual bypass. Yes, we all know that, and at some point we'll get to that, but not when it first happens and not when the person isn't ready, and it could take years. Years. I mean, it it totally invalidates your emotions, exactly. And and it could be unintentionally, because of course the people want to be helpful. The best helpful thing that you can do is remember less is more. I am so sorry. Is there anything I can do for you? Is there anything a cup of coffee? Can I can you want to tell me a story about somebody? Right, right. You know, I mean, I remember originally when my mom died, I couldn't talk to anybody. I I just couldn't. I wasn't not in a space to talk, I wasn't in a space to listen. I I had my own, I mean, I never knew that I would have grief that way like that.

SPEAKER_00 47:57

Because you don't know until it happens, you don't know, right, exactly, you know, and again, grief does not need to be explained away. You do not have you take you do not have to explain your grief, right?

SPEAKER_01 48:09

You know, I mean, in fact, if anything, frankly, it needs to be witnessed. Exactly, exactly. It needs to be witnessed and not judged, and not judged, yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. So some things, you know, um, that are helpful, some of the things that we've mentioned is, you know, grief journaling is always writing things down. There's a big difference between keeping them all up here or putting them on paper, whether you're putting them on paper like this by typing or actually writing. And let me say something about that, Sholy. If you're doing grief journaling or you're writing a letter to your whomever it is, your spouse or whoever it is, your child, they are reading the letter because so many times I'll do a reading. This just happened last week, and I'll say, Oh, they're telling me about like the apple tree and the da-da-da-da-da.

SPEAKER_00 48:59

And she said, Oh my god, I were you reading my journal? That's what I wrote to my daughter in my journal. I said, No, it wasn't me, she was reading your journal.

SPEAKER_01 49:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 49:08

So they read it, they read it.

SPEAKER_01 49:10

Yeah, yeah. So that's a wonderful reminder, you know. Um, memory integration, which is just about talking about it. Yes, therapy can be really helpful like that. If you have, if you you know, worry if you're gonna burden somebody who also has experienced the loss of the same person, yeah. You might feel like you're burning them. So therapy is a wonderful place to go. And I've had people just tell me stories that they've lost, and just share stories with me. Yeah, it's really special when that happens. Yeah, yeah. And I and I really, you know, I don't take lightly their trust in sharing those things with me, you know, narrative reconstruction, yeah. Narrative reconstruction, you bet. Yeah, yeah. Again, as I've always said, somatic grounding, you know, really just grounding yourself somatic because the pain can be so you get out of your body, you literally feel like you're out of your body, yeah, yeah. So, what I have in my office, um, and uh we can put the um, I think it's neuroeffective touch.com, but um is pillows, you know, those weighted blankets. And there's a there's a uh wonderful therapist that has created these pillows, and they have flax seeds in them, and you can even heat them. So maybe when you're feeling your grief, you sit on the couch, you put something weighted around you. And don't you have one, Cheryl, where they are? You could put them in the microwave or something, and then the pillows, yeah, yeah. Oh, there's only colours. I think isn't we'll we'll put it in uh we'll put it somewhere where you guys can find it. I think it's narroffective touch.com, but we'll put it somewhere where you can buy these pillows. They're they're a beautiful red velvet, and you can wash them and you can put them in the microwave. And so you're you're it feels like there's something, you know, you're not alone. And then you can sit in your grief and it feels just a teeny bit more comforting. It's not gonna lessen the grief and the pain, but it can feel just a little bit more comforting, yeah. Um, you know, and of course, structured grief therapy. All right, and there are some incredible grief groups out there, yeah. You know, if you are so inclined. Again, grief.com has some. Um, there's some in person, a lot of a lot of them in person now, you know, to do. Yeah, which are great, which really can be helpful, you know. Um spiritual practices to do. So you can create like a small remembrance ritual. Uh, you can write letters to the person. Again, they read it. You can light a candle with intention here, and I love to do that. Another thing that has always helped me is uh to go for a walk in nature to help you process it. You'd be surprised how like the wind on your face or the you know the smell of the leaves or something, it kind of just it helps, it helps, it's like it's healing, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:04

And allow oscillation, so you know, just allow it that it'll flib and flow here because there's no correct pace, period. There's no correct pace.

SPEAKER_01 52:14

Yeah, the nature walks. I wanted to add, you know, I had no idea, but a good friend of mine told me, and she got certified, in it's it's a very kind of old um practice from Japan called forest bathing. Oh what is the idea that everything has energy and everything talks to itself, to each other. So the the trees in the forest talk with the moss and they talk with the earth and they talk, and if you if you go in there and you kind of sit still, you can almost feel the energy from all the you know, when you talked about nature walking. Well, we have a forest here. It's too cold to go into it right now. But if you come out in the spring or the or in the fall or summer or fall, Cheryl, I'll take you there. It's unbelievable. It's like I don't think I've ever taken you there because it's always been too cold. I don't yeah, because I've always been for a movie.

SPEAKER_00 53:04

But it's so it's exactly the way you've just described. You literally almost feel like you're in a bath of this kind of energy. It's extraordinary, yeah. But it's a great, really good idea to do that. Yeah, so just remember everybody, grief is not a sign of weakness. They say it is love with nowhere to go. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:26

The nervous system grieves because attachment mattered, the attachment that you had with that person mattered. Absolutely, and meaning cannot be forced, it has to unfold. Yeah, yeah. And as we said before, psychology supports the process, and spirituality supports the meaning. Yeah, you can check out grief.com, David Kessler, and Shirley. Yeah, we hope that we've helped a little to make sense of what you're going through. If you're grieving, and the truth is we cannot make sense of it, it will just show up whenever it wants. There are a lot of great books too to look at, you know. I mean, any of James Jan Prague's books. I've got my book, uh uh what is the name of my cracked open? Yeah. Um because I tell a story about going, you know, what happens on the other side. Sometimes that's helpful for people to understand. There are all kinds of spiritual books to read. I find that really helpful, just as a reminder, again, not because it takes away the pain of grief, but just as a reminder, it kind of calms my it calms me down just a little bit so I can then continue to uh but no, there's it never ends, and that doesn't mean that it's a life sentence, but it it just it shows up less often, you know. But don't expect that there's something wrong with you because maybe a year, five years, 10 years from now, you're still feeling you know the grief of a loved one with intensity, exactly, exactly. So healing is not forgetting, and integrating, yeah. And so next week, Shirley, we're gonna be talking about emotional regulation in a dysregulated world. Oh my goodness, that's gonna be a good one. And actually, before we go, because this helps with grieving too, but it'll really help with what we're gonna talk about. I want to pull out this big hi Barry. Everybody see my Barry. She loves Barry. So this book, one of my patients referred me to it. The rabbit listened. This is a wonder. I was reading it. It's a kid's book, but god for adults, it's really helpful. I was reading it and I was actually crying through it. And it it can really help with what we were just talking about grief and how to be with someone when they're grieving. It's a wonderful. It's called It's The The Rabbit Listened by who does it. The rabbit listened. It says Dory, uh Cory, sorry, Cory, C-O-R-I uh Dorfeld. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing it correctly. But it's a beautiful book that helps with the process, certainly what we're gonna talk about next week, but but with the process of grieving as well. Right, okay, good. And um, if everybody wants to watch my show on Thursday, I am gonna be talking a little bit about, I'm gonna talk about dreams as my topic, but I am gonna be talking about all those meteors that are going around.

SPEAKER_00 56:25

Do you know there are so many meteors? There was one just in Michigan. I mean, come on, some meaning. We're gonna make meaning of that.

SPEAKER_01 56:33

Oh, lovely. Can't wait.

SPEAKER_00 56:36

All right, Charlie, thank you for everybody. Thank you, everybody. Great to see everybody listening. Have a wonderful.