Narcissistic Patterns & Self-Protection What You Need to Know

In this episode of Psychology & the Soul™, we explore narcissism beyond the buzzword — moving past labels and into a deeper understanding of patterns, behavior, and lived experience.

Narcissism is often talked about…
but rarely understood.

It’s not just about labeling someone.
It’s about recognizing what’s happening within relationships — and within yourself.

Hosted by Kellee White, LMFT, and Dr. Shirley Impellizzeri, PhD, this episode brings together psychology and awareness to unpack how narcissistic patterns impact emotional safety, perception, and identity.

✨ In This Episode, We Discuss:
What narcissism is — and what it isn’t

• The difference between traits and personality disorder
  
  
• Emotional manipulation, projection, and lack of accountability
  
  
• Gaslighting and how it affects your sense of reality
  
  
• Why confusion is often the first sign something is off
  
  
• How to recognize when you’re losing connection to yourself
  
  
• The role of boundaries in self-protection
  
  
• What boundaries actually look like in real life
  
  
• Why over-explaining doesn’t create change
  
  
• How to come back to your own clarity and truth
  
  

This is not about diagnosing others.
It’s about awareness.

Because when you understand the pattern…
you can stop questioning yourself.

If you’ve ever felt:

• Confused in conversations
  
  
• Like everything becomes your fault
  
  
• Emotionally exhausted or on edge
  
  
• Like you’re constantly explaining yourself
  
  

This episode will help you reconnect to your own reality.

#spiritualhealing #healing

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:35

Hi, everybody. I am spiritual medium and psychotherapist Kelly White. I'm here with my very good friend.

SPEAKER_01 0:43

I'm Dr. Shirley and Pelazeri. Happy to be here and to be with you, Kel, and with everybody, even though I can't see anybody, which is better on my nervous system.

SPEAKER_03 0:54

You know what? You're probably right. I like that, Shirley. And really, welcome back, everybody, to Psychology and the Soul, where psychology and spirituality come together in real grounded conversation. And today's topic is one that everybody is talking about right now, and that is narcissism. Now, it's a word that gets used a lot. I mean, I remember my mom talking about this actually, surely like in 19 the late 60s and the very early 70s. I don't know, she was she was describing my dad. What can I say?

SPEAKER_01 1:28

Yeah, it's been around since the first person landed on Earth. So true.

SPEAKER_03 1:34

It's so true. And it is a word that gets used a lot. And sometimes it is accurate. Sometimes it's said loosely, and often without a full understanding of what's actually happening beneath the surface. And so today we're not here to label and we're not here to diagnose, although we could. And more importantly, how to stay connected to yourself when you're inside of this situation, because that's where people get lost. And Shirley, you found this great quote, and I I just love this quote today. I'm not sure who said it, but if you guys like this one, it's such a good one. It's one reason why narcissists and sociopaths are so successful is because healthy people can't wrap their minds around the fact that people like this actually exist.

unknown 2:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:41

And I think that's a really important. And before we get into the deep into the topic of narcissism, I want to just mention briefly from a spiritual perspective, that when we choose certain experiences in life, we're going to have different people in our life and different experiences in our life. It's always to help us know thyself. And what around personality disorders, we'll we're just today going to be talking about narcissists, but there are so many very varying examples of this. But when we start down that path, oh, I always remember that they are incredible teachers because they force us to set boundaries, they force us to take care of ourselves in a way that maybe if we hadn't had that experience, we wouldn't. So what's really important is in a few weeks, I'm going to do a show on life reviews. But it's not just a typical show on life review. It's going to be a show with um, what what is it that that we've done while we're here on earth that we could have done differently? Like, really, what is it? And often I will have souls on the other side side say to me things about, I wish I had left sooner. I should not have, I wish I had done certain things with certain people earlier or later. Do you know? I should have left earlier. Um, wish I'd stood up for myself.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

You mean left the relationship earlier, not left earth earlier, right?

SPEAKER_03 4:04

Yes, yeah, yes. So, you know, it has a lot to do with people that are very difficult. So, Shirley, go ahead and let's start talking about uh narcissism.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

Well, because it goes against how we we have uh you know called social idioms, you know, social norms where it's how we expect people to behave. And that just showed up because we lived in tribes, and in order to stay in the tribe, so you don't get kicked out, and then you're alone in the jungle and you get killed by the tiger who's behind you that you know you're there by yourself, you can't see behind you. So we live in a tribe so you can see behind me and you can go, hey, sure, there's a tiger approaching, and that's say that would save my life. So we expect people to act in certain ways, and so when someone acts in a completely different way, it's hard to kind of to believe that that's real, you know, and because it comes in behavior, we think people can change their behavior. But you know, narcissism has become a widely used term, often used to describe difficult, self-centered, and harmful behavior. But clinically, it's a lot more complex than that. You know, we're looking at patterns that include a strong focus on the self, difficulty with empathy, not because they don't care. They it's almost like missing the computer chip of empathy. It's really the brain is wired differently. Um, a need for validation or control. Inside, they feel completely out of control, so they have to absolutely control the environment. Um, and often underlying insecurity that isn't always visible on the surface. Yeah. Narcissists are one of the most insecure people. So the ones that have to tell you all the time, the grandiose ones, about how great they are, it's because really inside they feel this small. Now that isn't to excuse the behavior, that's to understand it and know you need to walk away. You know, but we'll get into that later. Um, most importantly, to say this clearly, not everyone who displays narcissistic traits has narcissistic personality disorder. It's on a spectrum. So somebody might have some traits, and if there's insight, then that is wonderful because you can help somebody who has insight. Like, wow, why I'm not feeling like I care that I miss your birthday. A little bit of insight, you know. Um I miss your birthday. So what? You know my life is so busy, but that's different because there's no ability for insight. There's actual accountability, there's there's just defending. Responsibility, it's just defending, yeah. Because if I were to say, I am so sorry, I missed your birthday, I'm admitting fault. And their sense of self, which we call ego, their sense of self is so incredibly fragile that if I admit to something, I completely disintegrate. So that's at the core of it. But today we're going to separate the term from the trend, you know, and really talk about the lived experience, both internally and relationally.

SPEAKER_03 7:07

Right, right. And there is a difference between somebody having a narcissistic trait and then somebody having a personality disorder. And I think the distinction really matters because without it, everything becomes labeled and nothing is understood. Right, right, exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

When we overuse the term, we lose its nuance. And what we want to look at are patterns, things like entitlement, lack of accountability, projection, emotional manipulation, difficulty tolerating criticism. And these, when they become a pattern, that's when the recipient needs to start to view things differently. You know, everybody can be can show entitlement at times or can uh you know, can be mean at times. But if I'm able to own and apologize and repair, that's very different. If this is now a pattern, then that's what to look at. We also want to understand that these patterns don't exist in isolation, they're part of a larger psychological structure. That's what we call their narcissistic um, you know, um what they need in order to supply. It's called the narcissistic supply.

SPEAKER_03 8:18

Right. And when we only focus on labeling somebody, we actually miss what's happening in the dynamic. Okay. So because the impact is not just about the person, but it's about the relationship. Shirley, what have you seen in terms of how people misunderstand narcissism the most?

SPEAKER_02 8:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:36

Well, you know, again, without diagnosing or labeling labeling, you know, what helps with labeling is to understand. So it's not about labeling someone and then just it's to understand that there's there's an issue. So sometimes we think people's just being a little selfish, you know, but it's not that. The disorder of narcissism is more complex and nuanced and dangerous, you know, because most narcissistic people don't think I'm toxic, they think I'm misunderstood. You know, they rewrite stories in their mind where they're always the victim or the hero, never the problem. That's the pattern that you need to start watching out for. There's no guilt because, in their version, there's no wrongdoing. The facts we organize in real time to protect the self-image that can't tolerate any damage.

unknown 9:27

Right.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

So it's important to know these things and to understand them. You know, this is not a personality trait, it's a distorted relationship with reality.

unknown 9:36

Right.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

As soon as you said, you know, you were talking about um that they can be dangerous. First thing I thought about is somebody who believes that they are the greatest driver in the world and they will go crazy putting you in the car, going fast and in and out of traffic, as if that, and that's their reality, that their reality that it's safe to drive with them because they are good drivers.

SPEAKER_01 9:58

Exactly. When the facts speak very differently. But once they believe something, they will defend it. Yes, you know. So in psychology, we call it the self-surene bias. We protect our self-image, even if it means distorted reality, distorting reality. When and when we confront someone with who is who has these narcissistic traits, they don't reflect, they deflect, they blame, they gaslight, and they minimize. They truly believe their own narrative. And you know, so confidence isn't self-awareness, and that's a distinction that's very, very important. So they're defending what they've convinced themselves of. Oh, very much.

SPEAKER_03 10:39

I remember somebody that believed that he was the greatest pilot in the world. He was such a great pilot, and he got in uh in an accident, overshot the runway. I'll never forget this as long as I live. And he is immediately literally blamed everybody else, it had nothing to do with him, and he was the still the greatest, greatest pilot ever, and went into making other pilot accidents over and over. It was the damnedest thing ever.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

Wow, yeah, exactly. So what they believe is what they believe in. So the recipient of it, and there's no arguing with them or trying to, you know, there's no awareness because there's no awareness. So the recipient just needs to get that information, file it in your mind. Okay, this is what I'm dealing with, and then make decisions.

SPEAKER_03 11:25

But really, do you think it's not usually that like it might happen once, and then the next time it happens, and then you start filing it away, and you're watching the pattern at that point.

SPEAKER_01 11:37

Yeah, yeah, and it's not that easy. I mean, once you realize the pattern, you you're already bonded now because usually, you know, people don't act like this initially. And when they don't act like this initially, we think, oh, they can hold it together, but there's a survival mechanism there that takes place unconsciously because we're we're hardwired to bond with people. That's how the species, you know, continued. And so this behavior is not going to come out at the beginning, it starts to come out little by little. And once we're bonded, it's not an easy thing. So please don't blame yourself if you're in a relationship with with someone who has these features, you know, or or you got out of one after so many years, because the bond that we make with people is is very uh strong, and it's not that easy, especially because at times they will act, you know, they will the person that we fell in love with shows up. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, every conflict, every relationship, every version of events is reconstructed to position them as reasonable, wronged, or exceptional, which is what you're talking about. They can look at someone, they have genuinely harmed and feel nothing but bafflement at their reaction because they've already convinced themselves that the story went, you know, they rewrite history in a way, right? Their internal version of events has already erased what happened, their sincerity is real. I mean, because it really is. The erasure is real. Yeah. But, you know, but um both of those things are true at once. The level of self-deception is not normal, it's pathological. That's where you cross the the you know border to a personality disorder. It's when it's when the deception is pathological, when they've actually rewritten the story in their mind, believe that, and will argue to the death about something that you know is not right. So anytime you kind of question yourself, wait a minute, do I remember that correctly? Is it me? You might be dealing with someone with these characteristics.

SPEAKER_03 13:42

Right, right. It's very true. Um, and the experience of being in this relationship, let's talk about the experience of being in a relationship with somebody who has these patterns because this is where people start to feel like they're losing themselves. Yeah, yeah. Because there's confusion, um, there's self-doubt. You start self-doubt, you know, doubting yourself. Right. There's a term called walking on eggshells. So if I'm in a session with somebody and they're telling me the story, one of the first things I will say is, Are you walking on eggshells? Yes, that's exactly what it is. And at that point, we're dealing with you know a deeper personality disorder at this point, but but walking on eggshells is a big one, constantly trying to get it right. Like you, you know, like if I do this, then I'll get it right. If I do this, I'll get it right. You won't. And it's emotionally exhausting to be with this.

SPEAKER_01 14:35

Yeah. And this is where, you know, where we're trying to get them to see, you know, um reality or or be reasonable, you know, that's where we often see gaslighting happen. You know, it's important to really understand what that means because the terms get used a lot. Again, it's diluted because we use it so often, but it's not always acting, we don't use it always accurately. Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation where someone causes another person to question their own reality. And that in a nutshell is what gaslighting is. So you question your thoughts, you question your memories, your feelings, even your own intuition. You know, and the way people gaslight it can sound like that didn't happen. You're overreacting, you're too sensitive. You always twist things. And over time, this creates confusion to the recipient of it because again, at times they act loving, at times they act like the person you fell in love with, and so that we call that intermittent reinforcement, you know, is so hard to to um you know to fathom that then that we start to question ourselves. What's important to understand is that gaslighting doesn't always look extreme or obvious. Sometimes it can be very, very subtle. You know, it's not always loud and aggressive, it can be quiet, dismissive, even presented as a concern. Are you sure you want to do that? You know, which which plants the seed of confusion and doubt, self-doubt. Exactly, exactly. It's the gradual shifting of reality where what you experience gets minimized, denied, or reframed so often that you begin to question yourself. That's when you start to ask yourself, did I misunderstand that? You know, or am I making a bigger deal of this than it is? Maybe it's me, maybe I did something to cause this. You know, all those questions can kind of clue you in that you might be dealing with someone with who's on the continuum of narcissism, you know, and that's where the real impact happens because that causes, as you just said, some self-doubt, kind of planting the seeds of self-doubt. Um, because over time a person stops trusting their own thoughts, feelings, and perceptions and starts relying more on the other person to define what's real. And so now I'm relying on you for my own reality. And you start to imagine your own internal trust, yeah, you know, and you stop listening to your intuition, you kind of shut it down.

SPEAKER_03 17:14

Very destabilizing.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03 17:17

And that's why spiritually we always say know thyself, and even if you know thyself so well, this can still happen. This can still happen. Yeah, you know, they get in in the oddest ways, but it it can happen, and it is very destabilizing when this happens, you know. Just be for a second, Shirley. I mean, you know, talking about just with gaslighting, I think it's really important to understand something here because one of it, an example might be, you know, you promised you'd help me with that presentation last night, and the gaslighter might say, I never said that. You must be imagining things. Why would I promise something like that when you know how busy I am? Right. So there's the blame. It's there's the blame. Another one might minimize feelings. The you might say, I feel really hurt when you make jokes about my family. And I I've heard this one from so many of my clients. I make sure it hurts me when you make jokes about my family. And the gaslighter or the narcissist will say, Oh, come on, you're too sensitive. Now, for all my empaths out there, you're too sensitive, seriously. And here as an empath, you're trying to get your set your boundaries and know thyself and feel good about yourself. So it's awful when that happens. And then when they'll they'll say something like, Cheryl, it was just a joke. You need to lighten up. Can't you take a joke?

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Oh my God, that just drives me insane. Exactly. That's just it. That minimizes it, and again, puts it on the person, you know, okay, he was just joking, or she was just joking, you know, or they were just joking. And it really minimizes the person's feelings. How different would it be if somebody responded, Oh, I'm so sorry that that hurt your feelings? Right. And then once that lands, then share the intention, you know, I really was just joking, but I'm really sorry. So now you're holding both, both coexist. I can validate how you feel, and I can also share with you what my intention was, right? It was not to hurt you deliberately, right? But it's the inability to validate how the person feels. That's the clue.

unknown 19:23

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

If there's always a defense and a turnaround and blame you, now I'm the victim of your oppressive too sensitive, too sensitivity, you know, that's that starts to clue you in.

SPEAKER_03 19:38

Oh my God, that is so true. Um, and that's just that part is so disorienting. It's so disorienting because again, it doesn't happen all at once, it actually happens slowly over time, and then suddenly you no longer trust yourself. No, and so Shirley, what are some of the early signs that people might miss when they're entering these dynamics? And as far as stalking and stalkers and everything like that goes, Shirley and I are going to be teaching a class uh at the end of June, I think it's June 27th, and we'll we will be talking, you know, going to deeper of this. We're just kind of touching as much as we can on narcissism tonight.

SPEAKER_01 20:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is just kind of a little bit just to kind of uh because sometimes you feel like what's wrong with me, or I'm going crazy unless somebody spells it out and it's kind of formulaic. You know, I was working with this with this person who unfortunately mother was a narcissist, and the the kid was a teenager and he kept and it I started to understand, you know, what dynamic we were talking about. And I go, does she do this and this? And he goes, Yeah. And I go, and then when you do this, does she do that and that? He goes, Yeah. By the third time he goes, Do you know my mom? Okay, that's so funny. But again, not to label, but it is kind of formulaic. They they have certain characteristics that they all kind of fall into in different degrees, right? You know, so it's important to have this information so you can start to start to um um you know, start to see it, to see the patterns of it, start to see the patterns. I had written something on on narcissism borderline personality disorder, and I'd gave it to this editor to read. And like a year later, she sent me an an email and said, you know, if I had I had never heard of personality disorders, and if I hadn't read that, she goes, I met this person, it was amazing from the get-go. We had the most magical weekend, and then I started to notice. Ah, and I ended it that weekend, and I saved myself a world of misery only because she knew what to look for, because of characteristics, and that's not an easy thing to do because the flip side is extremely charming. I almost view that kind of it's how they get people in you know so they can then get their again what we call narcissistic supplies so they can get what they need in order to you know not feel a shell of themselves because otherwise without somebody mirroring that it's almost like they don't exist right if you are also if you have um self-worth issues and then all of a sudden somebody starts love bombing you it's intoxicating exactly exactly so when you asked about some signs love bombing is can be very distracting in the learning in the beginning and it's like look at it as you know when when something feels too much a little bit too soon too much even though it can feel amazing especially people like myself that come from neglect when you've had no attention paid on you from emotional neglect and all of a sudden someone is just thinking that you know you walk on water that's that can feel so intoxicating and so alluring. And so then we start to make excuses and we try to rationalize and you know it's really something to run by somebody if you're not sure you know run it by a friend or if you have a therapist run it by a therapist so to kind of save yourself from bonding so you don't bond if it's a relationship. If it's a parent or a sibling that's a different you know that that's it's setting boundaries and we'll get into that a little bit later. But um you know the way they tell stories can be a tell if they're always the victim of their story. You know wrongdoing was always done to them and there's no there's no owning and sorry what happens with that is as an empath you're hearing their story and the poor person the poor oh my goodness and the empath is I'm telling you the bonding has already begun because they have such a difficult time owning any wrongdoing even if it's just you know so so look for that that there's always a person who isn't who who doesn't talk in a balanced way well you know I said something that was kind of hurtful and so then they responded that way that's owning something but no that person was mean to me because you know and they're always the victim of their story um then that's that's a clue-in that's something to look out for oh absolutely and one of the biggest patterns that we see is projection so that is where what belongs to one person gets placed onto another person. Yeah yeah so when they um you know over time that creates a distortion because someone is consistently being told you're the problem you're too sensitive you're overreacting and eventually the person starts to believe it you know and it's many times what they're projecting is how they were treated or how they feel you know or that part of them that was fragmented that shadow side that couldn't exist because they were you know these people come from a lot of abuse yeah and so that's they project onto you kind of how they how they felt and I I always tell again my empaths out there that you can give these people all of your blood hook them up and it will not be enough.

SPEAKER_03 25:22

Yeah it's never enough yeah so as they started um and then they start adjusting themselves and it's not based on truth but it's based on what's being projected onto them.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Right right right projection protects the person who is unable to take accountability but it it stabilizes the person that's receiving it. You know how can you be so insensitive well truly I'm the one that's insensitive because I don't have that empathy chip in my brain but I'm blaming it on you and telling you that you're insensitive. So that's an example of projection it's something that I don't have they it's something that's about me that I'm projecting onto you. You know they have this um you know this saying I can't remember who the psychologist is that came up with it's called Darvo and it's an acronym and it's D is deny A is accuse and V is victim let me see Darvo D A V deny accuse reverse victim and oppressor so I come to you and say you know what you did really hurt my feelings and then they reverse that they become the victim of what you just said how can you say that don't you know that I was doing this for you and and what about everything you've done you know and so all of a sudden it gets switched and the person that came with a concern is the is now the perpetrator of all the bad stuff.

SPEAKER_03 26:52

Oh my God.

SPEAKER_01 26:53

How do people begin to recognize what is actually theirs and what isn't in a relationship with a narcissist yeah well I mean if you think that you might be in a relationship with a narcissist I would start to keep a journal you know because memory is is uh is not good you know we don't we can remember certain things if they if they hit us a certain way right but in general memory is not we can't trust memory so you start to keep a journal to remember exactly how things happened you know don't distort what you know to be real check it out with someone check it out with a friend you know this just happened how does this sound to you or with a therapist you know you really need to trust your feelings and intuition because the intuition will be the first to tell you something doesn't feel right right you know so those are important those are important things and and look for patterns I mean you're gonna have to go like your mom would teach me go into your left brain you can't come at it from the right brain the emotional brain and stuff because if this is someone that you love if it's a parent if it's a sibling if it's a partner you love them. So there's a bond there. So you really have to switch into the logical part of your brain and look at look at facts look at the patterns so Shirley I just because can we talk a couple of minutes about uh covert narcissists so people will understand what that is yeah yeah it's it's uh it is the sneakiest of them all right exactly grandiose narcissist we all know one yeah I'm the best person ever and I you know and they announce it and they they don't give a shit you know because they just know they're yeah and everybody should know and the ones that don't I don't want to waste my time with right the covert are the ones that don't have that they actually might have um kind of low self-esteem because they're always the victim oh can you believe this happened to me can you believe that person did that can you believe you know so we call them the vulnerable narcissists and the problem is that in order to feel good about themselves they have to pick at you and your confidence and your self-esteem yeah you know so they might present as this wonderful person they're the best people look what they do they help so much they do this they help everybody right exactly they'll go to the nth degree a friend needs them they will drive through three hours to go to that friend you know who needs them and stuff so friends and everybody else never sees that behavior because it only comes out with the person with the um with their attachment figure yeah yeah and um and also in families if it's a parent only the family unit gets to see that part of them right you know to the friends they're the best thing ever coworkers they're the best thing ever because they're always willing to help they're always willing to do that way when when people you know when people bring up something that hurts their feelings or when things don't work out they can say see all I did was I was trying to help them and I did everything for them and look at how they treat me.

unknown 30:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:20

I did everything for you.

SPEAKER_03 30:21

Right it's it they are and they just can sneak in because you you really don't see it coming with a with a one of them with a person like you don't because it it's really tricky because they present so differently as a character that we can kind of um you know compare them to they just present as so friendly and so nice and so giving and yeah yeah that's how they present and uh next thing you know you're involved with somebody like that yeah yeah because they try the the first clue will be when you bring up something that you're not happy with when you bring up an issue ah okay how they respond to that will tell you everything. Yeah yeah that's a such a drag surely those these narcissists golly um yeah I got I call them like they're like pod people you remember that movie what was it called um uh they remade it um oh god it was the aliens and it was a pod under your bed y fell asleep oh god what was that movie called I can't remember I don't remember the one you're talking about I can't remember the name of it so sure tell me so this is where boundaries are not just helpful but they are necessary again spiritually speaking we come to earth we're gonna have all kinds of difficult classes on earth personality disorders I think is definitely uh on the agenda for this time at on earth at this particular time and I think that setting boundaries is the most important thing that somebody can do in their life right exactly and boundaries are often misunderstood because they're not about controlling someone else's behavior and the narcissist in your life may call you controlling if you set a boundary or are you trying to control me for sure um but they're about defining what you will and won't engage in what you will and not tolerate you know what you need to remain in because what happens is you need to remain emotionally and psychologically intact you know for your own good yeah you're really if someone wants to drag you into something you know how could you be so insensitive how could you okay yeah you know you can't engage you can't try and defend you can't the the the the mistake that we make a lot and it's hard not to is we get into this thing of trying to defend we're hoping against hope that they're gonna see it from our perspective and they cannot they cannot see they can only see the world through their own perspective so trying to defend yourself trying to get them to reason to understand even to understand your own point of view right is going to land on deaf ears and so the boundary there would be okay this is how you see it okay I'm not gonna engage in that right right surely uh it's so funny um in s of body the body snatchers it's the invasion body snatchers yes oh my god I think when people hear the word boundaries they immediately think of uh to confront somebody but really boundaries start internally so an example might be you know not how about this one not over explaining yourself exactly so many people do you know you're you're involved with this person and you keep thinking that you'll be able to say it over and over and if you say it this way they can hear it no no do not so a great boundary with that one is not over explaining yourself and then not engaging in circular or unproductive arguments because we all know those and they will be circular you know and then recognizing when a conversation is no longer grounded in reality and that's again you know know thyself use your intuition stepping back emotionally instead of trying to fix or prove right on that one is because they're sharing how they've rewritten the story and you're trying to get them to but no remember when this happened and then that happened when you find yourself doing that it's best to just go okay I see that that's how you remember it.

SPEAKER_01 34:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 34:39

I remember it differently it's kind of like gray rocking yeah okay okay um and allow silence instead of trying to fill the space and I know a lot of people get really anxious with that one.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

You know I'm watching this um show it's uh beef uh season two and who it's a hard one to watch um I'm kind of fascinated but it's a hard one to watch and I notice the couples it's a constant I love you I love you I love you I love you and it's like trying to hold the relationships together it's really with that you know instead of just you know keeping silent you know for yourself here yeah yeah well because we have this kind of need or this tendency to again overexplain to try and get them to see it from our point of view just to even consider our point of view you know I mean how wonderful for an argument to go okay you see it that way I saw it this way and two differing point of views can coexist. Yeah they can't with a narcissist they can't they have to win at all costs they have to see it through their eyes otherwise there's something wrong with you you're doing this to me how can you do that you're oversensitive you know it it's then the blame is goes on you so boundaries are clarity they're not punishment and they're not rejection and they will say that they are why are you punishing me why are you rejecting me what they really are is a form of self-respect.

SPEAKER_03 36:05

Absolutely what shifts for someone when they begin holding boundaries consistently Shirley what shifts for somebody I'm in the boundary stage of my life and I'm loving it.

SPEAKER_01 36:17

Yeah well it's it's it's you gain self-respect you're doing something kind for yourself you're gonna get it's gonna get twisted and like you're doing something wrong. So when you said they're our biggest teachers it can teach us to take care of ourselves maybe we come from families where we weren't taken care of where our needs weren't you know weren't nurtured and so we don't know how to do that. So setting boundaries is a way to start to take care of ourselves.

unknown 36:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 36:45

And in that life review that we do ultimately it's were you good to yourself?

SPEAKER_01 36:51

That was a big question were you good to yourself and so often we don't include ourselves in the equation. We're wonderful to friends we're wonderful to you know family members but we don't include ourselves in that equation so why can't we be wonderful to ourselves right you know not as not exclusively but in addition to you know setting a boundary can be as subtle as I'm not answering the phone. If you know that it's someone who's going to call you to want to argue to want to blame you to all that I'm not answering the phone.

SPEAKER_03 37:24

Yeah that that's that's a boundary it's an empath's hardest thing to learn and the most important thing that they have to learn.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

Yeah most important because I think empaths are so you can feel the other person's hurt and pain.

SPEAKER_03 37:42

You can feel their rage if you don't do it.

SPEAKER_01 37:44

I mean we didn't even get into the rage aspect of this but they you know narcissists tend to rage yeah yeah well because they have to defend their really fragile sense of self and that's why the more you try to to reason with them the more you're gonna defend it and that's why there's no point. That's why it's best to just you know walk away or just answer in a very okay right you know it's funny I compare it to uh they they don't have that character on anymore well that guy isn't on the show anymore but Saturday Night Live do you remember the character Chad let me I don't know if I do my god okay if if whoever's listening out there doesn't remember it look it up it's hilarious it was Pete Davidson I think it was and he just didn't get bothered by anything a fire could be in front of okay that was his answer to everything.

SPEAKER_03 38:39

Okay so we need to become like Chad when you're dealing with the narcissist it's very funny and you did this and then you did that okay you know become Chad become Chad oh my god and I think that again you know one of the most common patterns that we see is uh if I just explain myself they'll understand but they won't they exactly exactly because if someone lacks empathy or accountability more explanation is not going to create change right it's gonna create more opportunity for distortion it's gonna create more opportunity for fight for blame you know kindness only works with those who have the capacity to respect it. So we got to repeat that Shirley because I think people need to understand that because yes we want to be kind in the world however however kindness only works on those who have the capacity to respect it.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

Right right and that doesn't mean that we that then with people who are narcissistic we're unkind we're neutral we become Chad so that's not unkind although they might blame you for being unkind because you're not going into the dance anymore because you they'll project on that exactly exactly but knowing that neutrality is not unkind although they might they might uh accuse you of being unkind well nothing disarms a narcissist faster than realizing that they no longer have control of you. So true so true that's setting that boundary absolutely absolutely because every time you excuse their behavior you're sending them the message that they can treat you like that. You know um a narcissist doesn't seek balance in a relationship they seek dominance even if it's very subtle it's very they have to be on top they have to win at all costs. Exactly exactly and you can't negotiate you know with the narcissist through kindness because they don't understand it's almost like you're speaking a different language to them they don't understand right right you know so there's no negotiating that right right however and that's where they put you in a double bind because if you fight back they don't respect that either and they'll fight you until you until you're exhausted until they've taken all your energy and you just kind of collapse and they've gained the control again. Yeah so it's kind of a no-win situation that's why they also call them energy vampires you know yeah reasoning with a narcissist never works you know you bring facts they bring denial you bring emotions they bring deflection you know you try to resolve conflict and they bring the conflict right back on you and blame you for it yeah so detachment is your most powerful weapon right and that's what we're talking about become Chad detachment is your most co I think people who are gonna Google you know Chad Saturday live are gonna die laughing because he is just so okay and it totally detached I mean that's how you would describe his character they blame you for something or try to engage you in an explanation don't just say I'm sorry you see it that way.

SPEAKER_03 41:53

Yeah and that's up there with gray rocking it's almost yeah okay all right and leave alone okay because your emotional reactions are their fuel I mean they don't see your anger they don't see you're frustrated they don't care about your sadness they just see that as proof of control they don't they don't care about any of that exactly exactly and so so you're the one that's left you know drained and and not understanding and you know and you for people who haven't dealt with this a lot you're you're left with thinking but wait a minute this did happen and you're left confused and questioning yourself and you run it in your mind over and over and over again because it doesn't make any sense. All right and then you know what I've seen too and I know you've seen this many times is you hear a story and then those people whoever the story is about they're telling another story and then the story is you just everybody's hearing a version of the story and it you know it's always just an awful lot and it's a lot of it's exhausting you know and I I think surely that um I you know this show is about awareness and so the real question becomes what's happening inside of you in these dynamics so the question for healing is why did I let this continue for as long as I did which is a really good question except you have to have a lot of compassion for you might have had a mother that was a narcissist or a borderline or a father that was uh drugs and alcohol can play a part in this as well I mean there's a all Shirley and I are trying to do is bring in awareness to your life an awareness and it keep when you said earlier Cheryl like keeping a journal writing these kind of things down that you remember or that you're witnessing it will really help because and as you know listen Shirley and I both I mean I'll speak for you and this we've both been with you know personality disorders because because again because the other side of them how they got through life because if you just kind of act like a jerk not a lot of people are going to be around you right

SPEAKER_01 44:00

So the other side is the charismatic piece, you know, that just kind of draws you in. It feels like a drug almost. It draws you in.

SPEAKER_03 44:07

And once you're bonded, well, and that's the thing, again, something to look at. What part of you is willing to accept this behavior? Okay. And when you ask that question, you might begin to see the deeper patterns that they play. Like maybe it was a belief instilled in childhood that love was got to be earned. Or maybe it was a fear of abandonment that kept you clinging to a toxic relationship long past its expiration date. And maybe it was a subconscious narrative that you told your needs were secondary to somebody else's. That could be it too. Is it maybe it's identifying these patterns that true liberation begins? Okay. Once you start to recognize the mechanisms that made you susceptible to the narcissist control, you can begin dismantling them and you can begin establishing new boundaries, not just with them, but with yourself, which is really important. And you can begin redefining what you will and will what you will not accept in your relationships. So ask yourself, what are you abandoning yourself? Where are you abandoning yourself?

SPEAKER_01 45:12

Yeah. And these aren't, you know, I just wanted to really clarify this is look at it with curiosity. When you're asking yourself, you know, um, why did you let this go for as long as you did? I've asked myself that question too. So it's not about criticism or judgment or to feel bad about yourself, it's for compassion to understand there's always a valid reason. So look at it with curiosity. That question can be asked so many different ways, you know, why did I let this continue for as long as I did? That's critical. Yeah. Why did I let this continue for as long as I did? That's curiosity.

SPEAKER_03 45:49

Yeah, really, you guys, it's hard to get out of these relationships. It's not easy. It's just not easy. Shirley, well, how just briefly, um, are narcissists born this way or is this a learned behavior?

SPEAKER_01 46:02

You know, they say that it's both nature and nurture, meaning that, you know, there's a genetic predisposition for it. However, how you're treated at home, if you're coming from a very loving and nurturing and attuned environment, that gene stays dormant and doesn't get expressed. You know, so you might be the person who maybe at times can show up a little bit selfish, but oh, I'm so sorry. No, I didn't mean that, you know, but you have that self-awareness because you were brought up in a very nurturing home, you know. So uh so while there is a predisposition, it doesn't mean that if you have a relative who's a narcissist, you're gonna be a narcissist too. Even asking yourself that question lets you know that you're not because they have no self-awareness. And so if you're asking yourself that, it's important to view that as you're being curious, you know. So it is both. It is both.

SPEAKER_03 46:57

It is both, yeah. Seems I just see more of it now, surely, than than I have ever. Just seems I don't know why that is, but it it just feels that way.

SPEAKER_01 47:07

It depends on it, it feels that way because you know if there's people out there in the media that that um act a certain way, then it's out there in the media and everybody sees it, you know. So then it feels like there's more people than in your own world, you know.

SPEAKER_03 47:26

Yeah. Oh my gosh, wow. Well, let's see. Well, and also, you know, ask yourself what feels true versus what feels distorted. And this is a big one, but ask yourself what would it look like to trust yourself again? You know, and I remember, and I've repeated this many, many times, but I remember being in therapy uh trying to get over a relationship with a narcissist. And I remember I said to the therapist, would I ever pick this again? And the the uh therapist unfortunately said, uh, no, you wouldn't do that. And that's just not the truth. The truth is you have to be very vigilant about who you have around you, and you have to be really pay attention to the real red flags that are out there because it is possible just because you have one experience, you can have several. Why don't we feel like some people uh the kryptonite, narcissists are their kryptonite, or narcissists are or my kryptonite, right?

SPEAKER_01 48:22

Because because we all came from what we came from. We can do our work and be more. I mean, I'll never forget this a few years back, you know, many years back, was it at least five years back? Uh I was out with a friend, and these two gentlemen sat next to us, and there was one that I was particularly attracted to, and the other one not so much. And because I've got my old pal Cal, I sent her their birthdays and said, Hey, what's the card for each one? And the one that I was attracted to was the sociopath card. So, you know, even with all the help, and I did not pursue that, even with all the help, you know, and in all the the um your own your own therapy and stuff, we come from what we come from. However, that's why we're doing these, these, um, you know, these podcasts, when you start to recognize the behavior, you can also say, okay, while I feel a pull towards this person, this is not good for me. Yeah, you know, or I need to get away from this. And that's where the boundary, that's where the self-care comes in, that's where you set a boundary, even if from an emotional standpoint you're still feeling that pull.

SPEAKER_03 49:29

Yeah, and really pay attention to that your body because your body keeps the score with that, you can feel a little something's off.

SPEAKER_01 49:36

Right, exactly, exactly. And you know, again, the tell science is how they speak, and also if when you bring up something that you want to discuss, something that maybe hurt your feelings or something that uh that uh is painful to you, how they respond to that, yeah, is a tell isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 49:56

And it's so true, Shirley. Once you see a narcissist, uh you and the the whole thing you can't unsee it.

unknown 50:03

Right.

SPEAKER_01 50:03

Right, you just can't believe it. Right, exactly. And again, know that that other side, because there's that flip side, that charm, that you know, that unbelievable kind of because they're also trained because of their own childhood trauma is to really um get to know you really well and know where your soft spots are, so they're going to go for those soft spots like nobody's business. Yeah, that's what draws you in. So that's important.

SPEAKER_03 50:32

So, so true. Oh my god. And no, it's so true too, because no amount of anything that you can do with love or wisdom is gonna change.

SPEAKER_01 50:40

No, unfortunately, unfortunately, it's just not at some point. You just have to come to terms with that and set boundaries and know that it's easy. Setting boundaries doesn't mean that you're all of a sudden devoid of feelings and not, you know, it's not easy. You will have feelings, but you also click into your left brain, like your mom used to teach me, and also know is this good for me or not good for me.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

Right.

SPEAKER_03 51:05

Or as I say, I move the empath aside. Step aside, empath, you're not doing me any good right now. I do that and it works every time.

SPEAKER_01 51:15

Yeah, yeah. You know, so understanding these patterns allow people to move out of confusion and into clarity, and that's what we're hoping. You know, and clarity is what supports healthier decisions, supports healthier boundaries and healthier relationships.

SPEAKER_03 51:29

Truly, and clarity is what brings you back to yourself and not the version of you that's shaped by somebody else's perception, but that version of you that knows what is true.

SPEAKER_01 51:40

Yeah, and you know, and it's important to work, especially if you have a parent who fits this description, it's important to work with the therapist because it's also a grieving, you know, and that's for you know, for relationship too. It's grieving the parent that you needed so bad, right, or to accept the parent that you actually have and accepting that, grieving the relationship that you thought you were in, you know, to accept that it wasn't that and why you needed to walk away. Absolutely. Isn't Earth hard?

SPEAKER_03 52:15

It's such a hard school. It's so hard, Cheryl. I don't want to do it again. I'm done. I'm done. I don't want to do it again. Yeah, you guys want to go deeper into this work that Shirley and I are talking about with personality disorders and understanding patterns and understanding triggers and understanding boundaries in a real grounded way. We invite you to join us for our upcoming class, which is called understanding personality patterns, triggers and boundaries. And in this experience, we're gonna guide you through recognizing patterns without judgment, understanding emotional triggers, we're gonna talk about the nervous system regulation and building boundaries that truly support your well-being. So you can learn more about this and you can reserve your spot in our class. It's June 27th, it's on Zoom. It's at 9 a.m. to about 11:30 Pacific time on June 27th. And I just want to say this in the class, we will also be answering a lot of questions and we're gonna cover a lot, go really deep into this uh personality situation if you find yourself in a situation.

SPEAKER_01 53:22

So yeah, Shirley and made up, you know, to tell your story and we'll go right into it with you too. Right. We'll have ample time for questions and answers because I know that bringing up these topics brings up a lot of questions.

SPEAKER_03 53:34

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:35

We'll have a lot of time to answer your questions, you know. So thank you for being part of this conversation with us. You know, they're not always easy topics, but they're important ones. You know, and the more we understand these patterns, the more we're able to make choices to support our well-being, because that is key. It's it's it's compassion for the self, you know, um, to support our relationships, to support our sense of self, too. You know, we hope that this gave you not just insight but clarity. Yeah, and we will see you next week on psychology and the soul. What are we gonna talk about next week?

SPEAKER_03 54:12

Talk about AI, believe it or not, Cheryl, how it's impacting us psychologically, emotionally, and spiritually. Yeah, there's always gonna be big topics to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 54:25

There's always gonna be. I mean, AI can be a wonderful thing, but also it can it can be not so great. Yeah, I'll be talking about that next week. Teach you what to look for.

SPEAKER_03 54:35

Yeah. So thanks everybody. Thank you, Shirley. I'll see you next week. I love you. Thanks, everybody. Bye-bye.