Are We Addicted to Healing? The Hidden Problem with Modern Self-Help Culture

What if healing has become another form of perfectionism?

Why are so many people doing the work, reading the books, listening to the podcasts, attending the workshops, and spending years focused on self-growth...

Yet still feeling disconnected, exhausted, anxious, and emotionally stuck?

In this thought-provoking episode of Psychology & the Soul™, Kellee White, LMFT, and Dr. Shirley Impellizzeri, PhD, explore one of the most important conversations happening in modern culture:

Has healing become something we're performing instead of experiencing?

Today, self-help is a multi-billion-dollar industry.

Therapy language fills social media feeds.

Trauma, triggers, boundaries, attachment styles, shadow work, nervous system regulation, and spiritual awakening have become part of everyday conversation.

While increased awareness has helped countless people, it has also created new questions.

Can we become so focused on healing that we forget how to live?

Can self-awareness become self-obsession?

Can healing become an identity rather than a process?

Can spirituality become another performance?

Together, Kellee and Dr. Shirley explore:

✨ What true healing actually means
✨ Trauma identity and performative vulnerability
✨ Why healing can become emotionally exhausting
✨ Social media therapy culture and psychological trends
✨ The pressure to constantly grow, evolve, and optimize yourself
✨ Toxic positivity and spiritual bypassing
✨ Emotional burnout from endless self-analysis
✨ Boundaries, resilience, and rebuilding trust in yourself
✨ The loneliness epidemic and the loss of genuine human connection
✨ Integration versus endless self-improvement

Along the way, they tackle difficult questions many people are quietly asking:

🔥 Has self-help culture become psychologically unhealthy?
🔥 Are people becoming addicted to healing without actually healing?
🔥 Has trauma become social currency online?
🔥 Are we glamorizing emotional pain while avoiding true integration?
🔥 Why do so many people feel pressure to appear healed, awakened, or emotionally evolved?
🔥 Is modern life disconnecting us from community, intimacy, and belonging?

Most importantly, this episode explores a powerful truth:

Healing is not about becoming a better version of yourself.

Healing is not about fixing yourself.

Healing is not about achieving perfection.

Healing is about remembering who you were before survival became your identity.

Before fear shaped your decisions.
Before performance replaced authenticity.
Before you learned to believe something was wrong with you.
Because awareness is not the destination.

Integration is.
And true healing doesn't create a new you.
It brings you home to yourself.

🎙️ Psychology & the Soul™
With Kellee White, LMFT & Dr. Shirley Impellizzeri, PhD

#PsychologyAndTheSoul #HealingJourney #MentalHealth #TraumaHealing #PersonalGrowth #SpiritualGrowth #EmotionalHealth #SelfAwareness #Psychology #SelfHelp

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Well, hi, everybody. Welcome to Psych and the Soul, Psychology and the Soul. I'm spiritual medium and psychotherapist Kelly White, and I'm with my dear friend.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Hi, everybody. I'm Dr. Shirley Pelizari, psychologist, and also co-host with Kelp.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

That's right. Oh my gosh. We have a very special topic tonight. And surely I've been um asked this question so many times. And it's, you know, people ask me all the time, are is this society, you know, addicted to healing? Yeah. So we're gonna be talking about that, you know, because surely and I come from a background of wanting to heal.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

Right, right. You know, but not thinking. Right. But as kids, you know, that wasn't even anything that our parents ever talked about, or even in the realm of their scope at all.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Well, my mother was a psychologist and was different, yes, uh, female therapists back in the day. So we did talk about it, but it still wasn't the way it is now. Yeah, yeah. It just is very different, you know, and and this is a conversation that probably people need to have because we have never lived in a time with more therapists. You know, Shirley, what you and I practiced, uh, had an office together in Beverly Hills. And didn't they say that there were like 100 therapists on every block? Yeah, yeah. I think that's exaggeration. I think it was about that.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

Right, yeah, yeah. Well, I think like anything else, and we might have touched upon it in other shows, the pendulum swings to the other side until it finds a happy medium. And so you really have to find what works for you, what's comfortable for you.

SPEAKER_01 2:23

Right, right. Yeah, and you know, now we have coaches, we have more podcasts, right? We have a lot more self-help books. I mean, back in the day we did have a few self-help books. In fact, there's some really interesting ones, but we also have more healing, more healing programs. We also have more trauma education. Again, when I was in high school, we really, of course, we talked about trauma, but not in the way that it is now.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

No. Well, because we're understanding trauma in a different way. Actually, I had a conversation with one of my patients today about what's considered big T traumas and small T traumas, you know, and what we used to think about trauma, the way we used to define trauma, are the what we would consider the big T traumas.

SPEAKER_01 3:09

Explain people to people what that is.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Well, that would be like sexual abuse, physical abuse, you know, the big deal stuff that we all thought was trauma. That that is trauma, of course. But we didn't consider the small, what we consider the small tea traumas, which is ongoing stressors in life. A mother who is, which is someone I was talking to today who was so narcissistic, she couldn't think about what her child needed. So it was ongoing, ongoing little things like this, you know, and those create stress. They create a lot of stress, and it can be seen as traumatic. You know, it is it is trauma that we experience. So having a stressful childhood that you can't necessarily pinpoint to physical abuse or sexual abuse could still be trauma. We can still have the effects of what we consider trauma as an adult.

SPEAKER_01 4:05

And so what you're really saying is there's more awareness now of mental health and more awareness of certainly of the topic of trauma.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

Exactly, exactly. And what I love too is that it's discussed a lot more openly now, that we're not so shy about talking about it, you know.

SPEAKER_02 4:23

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:23

I mean, even when I came to this, you know, I thought, you know, didn't realize why I had decided to go into psychology, which of course there's always something that pushes us to the professions that we choose. And I remember I was talking to it, it was Dr. Peter Levine and Dr. Drew at the time because he was going to be on his podcast. And Dr. Drew says to me, Well, Cheryl, why are you into this? Why did you get into psychology? Why are you so interested in trauma and all this stuff? What was your childhood like? And I said, Well, I said, you know, I never thought I had any trauma. Nobody drank, nobody smoked, nobody fought, you know, in my family, there was no chaos, there was nothing. I said, and my dad's send-off to college to me was study a lot, uh, study a lot and get a good education, and don't get into a relationship because emotions are a waste of time. And they both literally stopped what they were doing, looked at me, started cracking up and said, We get it. Yeah, we get it. So neglect can also be trauma when there's no one mirroring your existence. Can be worse, actually. Well, they do say that sometimes it has worse psych, you know, um psych uh uh effects. So yeah, trauma that we would have in the past never considered.

unknown 5:42

Right.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

And that's right, we wouldn't have it wouldn't have been a topic, wouldn't have come up. You know, and people now we're wondering why people feel you know more anxious right now, or frankly, more disconnected. And some people feel very overwhelmed right now and more lonely. Loneliness is is an epidemic, yeah, and really more exhausted than ever. People will say to me all the time, I'm so exhausted. And um it's I hear this all the time. So tonight we're gonna ask a provocative question is have we though, even though Shirley and I are talking about all of these situations, are we addicted or have we become addicted to healing? And so not healing itself, but maybe the endless pursuit of healing because it's like it's instead of like the constant belief that we are broken, right, and the pressure maybe to be fixing ourselves or to always be fixing ourselves or always be improving ourselves or always evolving or always working on ourselves. I mean, at what point does healing become another form of maybe self-judgment?

SPEAKER_00 6:47

Yeah, yeah. Well, it's such an important conversation.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

It is partially does it become an obsession?

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

What if we're searching for something that you know isn't a breakthrough, but maybe it's just a permission to finally live?

SPEAKER_00 7:02

Right, right. Well, when we're always looking for the healing, always focused on what went wrong, instead of taking a step back and going, How far have I come? That see that right there, and that repeat that. Yeah, yeah. To take a step back, say, how far can I have I come? What have I healed? What doesn't trigger me as much as it used to, right? You know, and really noticing where we have, where we've progressed and where we have healed, you know, as you've taught me, Kelly, you know, Earth is is a school. So we're always going to be in the process of evolving. There's always going to be room to evolve, to become um, you know, I don't want to say better people healed, you know. But but we also have to take a step back and see how far we've come. That is just as important.

SPEAKER_01 7:58

I think it's really important, actually. And it kind of answers the question about is healing, you know, what what are we doing at this point? Uh, because I think it's really important to understand yourself so well, know thyself, know where you are, and maybe you are in grief, or maybe you are in a depression, or and know where you are at all times. I've had people, many people, and I'm sure you have, Shirley, that have said, I need to take a break from therapy now. Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 8:29

Yeah, absolutely. Because you have to, you also have to give the time to integrate everything that you've learned and what you've been healing. And integration takes time, it's slowing things down, it's it's looking at where you were and where you are, yeah, and also where you want to go, of course. But it but slowing things down really helps with integration instead of always being on that healing kind of wheel.

SPEAKER_01 8:59

Right, right. That's so important. And so we want to look at, you know, when healing becomes an identity, because let's start with something people may not realize, surely, that sometimes the thing that once helped us begins to limit us. So I know people, you know, with every diagnosis, so we can talk about attachment style or trauma response. I mean, the people know everything about themselves at this point, every nervous system term, but they no longer know who they are outside of their wounds. And that kind of concerns me because healing should expand your identity, not replace it.

SPEAKER_00 9:37

Absolutely, absolutely. Trauma and our traumatic experiences or experiences that felt traumatic explains our behavior, but it doesn't define our identity, nor does attachment. Attachment gives us an understanding of who we are, but it doesn't define us. You know, how our nervous system works allows us to understand ourselves a little bit better, even at that level, at the nervous system level, but it also doesn't define us.

SPEAKER_01 10:08

Right, right. And healing requires flexibility.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

Absolutely, absolutely, because we have to be we have to be flexible to understand all of us. It's not just one thing, you know. We we really can't run the risk of labeling ourselves into one thing. We're so, you know, it's it's like the proverbial onion. There's so many layers to us. And understanding is one thing, you know, but not labeling, not getting stuck there, you know. Identity is is who we are is larger than our pain, you know, and larger than just one facet of us.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Do you think that over-identification keeps people stuck?

SPEAKER_00 10:53

It can, it can, because um, and and it's an important part of the process. It's important to own and to validate who we are, where we came from, and what happened to us. People sometimes I actually see that people want to skip that step too quickly and get to the get to the healed piece, you know. But it's so important to validate as a first step, right? You know, and then include reconnecting with our strengths, with with what we can do, with our possibilities, you know, because a lot of times the defense, the survival skills that we developed as kids can work for us as adults, yeah, you know, they can work against us if it's too much, but in different areas they can work for us.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Right. I had a woman that came to me um that could explain every trauma she had ever experienced. I'm sure you've had patients like that, and she would identify every trigger and every pattern and every wound. And we went through this many, many, many, many, many times. And finally I I asked her because it was kind of just wasn't a on a she wasn't going in a negative, but there was just really not a lot of growth with that. It was great that she got there, yeah. That that continued. So I asked her, What do you like about yourself? And I want everybody to think about that. Yeah, what do you like about yourself? And I actually got that from my grandkids when I had this card deck, and this card deck said questions for kids. Yeah, and I it was a great question. So, and I asked this woman that, and she said to me, I don't know. You know, it's funny, as adults, we may not know what we like about ourselves. Surrounded by you know, this wound, that wound, this trauma. Well, what do you like about our yourself? And funny, my grandchildren, what six and and nine could go right to it. Yeah, right to it, they went, but not everybody can do that, yeah. And somewhere along the way, this client of mine became like an expert on her in her pain, but a stranger to herself.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

Yeah, right, absolutely. Well, I'd venture to say that not everybody has a wise grandma to ask them that question, to ask those children that question. That's very true, but it was a wise grandma that purchased said cards. Well, and that's why said cards exist to help us shift this paradigm where we're always just looking at what isn't working. And that is also because of the negativity bias in the brain. And I'm sure many of you have heard me say this. It's actually a very real neurobiological. We have a negativity bias because it it's evolutionary, it's to save the species. We have to remember everything negative to not repeat that so the species can survive. The positive stuff, who cares? You know, that was the cave where the bears live, where my friend got killed. That's the cave where we had fun. Okay, who cares about that? I need to remember that cave because that's gonna save my life. Right. So we already have that to begin with, and so it's it kind of is part of our makeup to focus on the traumas, focus on the stuff that isn't working, focus on the stuff that hasn't happened yet. And it's very, you know. Um there's a wonderful book called The Buddha Brain after Rick Hansen, who talks about how we have to be very purposeful, very conscious to stop for a moment and think about the positive things, think about how far we've come.

SPEAKER_01 14:37

Yeah, which is what we're really talking about tonight. Think about how far you've come. Right. You know, and think about what uh you know, what do you like about yourself? It's a simple question. Yeah, and then ask your friends what do they like about themselves, ask your family members if if it's safe. It's safe, you know, but social media has created something pretty fascinating because people are sharing more now than they've ever shared before, right? Yeah, are we becoming more authentic, or is it really performance? You know, yeah, wonder about that. And then when does vulnerabil vulnerability heal and when does it become content?

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Yeah, well, I think it's a mixture of both. I think we like to really, you know, criticize social media because of that, because it feels performative, because people only post pictures of when they're having fun, so they have a big smile on their face. No one's gonna post a picture of today, I was depressed. I might actually start doing that, you know. Um, but but we don't. And so we have this tendency to think that everybody has a great life and we're not, we're missing out on it. So it's important to look for both, to have a mixture of both. Social media has wonderful sayings that can help lift a spirit, you know, so so and it's becoming a little bit more balanced, at least my my uh feed is more balanced than that, because I look for things like that, you know. But you know, when you talk about vulnerability, we're so afraid of being vulnerable to someone. And actually, genuine vulnerability builds connection. Oh, for sure. You know, when you tell me something that happened to you that you're feeling, you know, that caused you to feel bad or caused you to feel sad, I feel so connected to you. On the one hand, you're human, you know, and it makes you see your humanness. Yeah, and so it will I I remember one time I was working with this with this patient, and she told me this, and I never forgot. She had talking with her, was maybe soon to be an ex-boyfriend, and really sharing with him how she felt. And she said, and in that moment, I realized the power, the strength in vulnerability. She was able to share her innermost feelings, and however he reacted was his stuff, but she was able to share how she really felt, and she noticed the strength in that, and that's very healing, very healing.

SPEAKER_01 17:20

Yeah, wow. Well, one of the most healing experiences in life is being witnessed, and that's exactly what happened with what you just said. But being witnessed isn't the same thing as being watched, it's a difference, it's different, you know.

SPEAKER_00 17:35

Oh, yeah. No, being watched can be uh creepy. Being seen, being witnessed is part of being seen and at the at the core of attachment, yeah, you know, to feel seen, even to the level of feeling felt by someone, you know, creates so much safety because you don't feel alone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:58

Well, and this is a question for everybody listening. When was the last time you shared something because it was true instead of because it would get a response? Yeah, yeah. It's it's a good good question there. Let's talk about um the elephant in the room, Shirley, that healing has become an industry. Yeah, it really has, and a very profitable one. And while many people are doing amazing work, and listen, we know so many people in our circle are healers, yeah, and I love every one of them, and so many are doing great work, but there's also a message about um the you know, being sold, you know, like the message is you're not there yet, or you still need one more course, or you still need one more certification. And I have many people that I work with that have every kind of certification that you could imagine, right? You know, I mean, it's like I need just need one more breakthrough, or I just need one more healing session, or one more answer. So, at what point do we stop chasing ourselves? Like, when are we good enough?

SPEAKER_00 19:05

Yeah, well, I mean, realizing, of course, and we all know this, but sometimes it's important to hear it that perfection is is unattainable. It's not about being perfect, you know, and to notice when you're doing too much, self-improvement can become compulsive to take a step back, to also take a survey, maybe add that into your healing uh protocol every night, just like we do uh, you know, the gratitude journal, which all the research shows that it's so helpful, to also maybe journal what what do I like about myself today, or where how far have I come? What did I where did I feel healing today?

SPEAKER_01 19:45

That's a good one.

SPEAKER_00 19:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because that that would help balance both. You know, the need to heal, but also the coming into what has worked, what have I healed? Right, what feels a little bit better.

SPEAKER_01 20:02

And progress does include rest.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Oh, yeah. Absolutely, absolutely. Well, that's what we're talking about, is slowing things down. That is about rest. That is about, you know, um not always wanting to do the next thing, you know, taking a step back, slowing things down. A way to slow things down is to ground yourself, you know, maybe take two minutes. It doesn't have to take that long at any time of the day to notice your feet on the ground, yeah, to notice your seat in the chair. You know, these are the orienting muscles. And so to orient into where you are in the here and now, looking around the room, and that really puts you in the here and now. And so then your mind isn't going on what do I still need to heal? It's where I'm at in this moment.

SPEAKER_01 20:48

I like that. Yep. And the pressure to be spiritually evolved, that's been a you know, big been a big one because spiritual communities are they can be really great. I mean, I have a wonderful spiritual community that I just absolutely love. And it can also create pressure, you know, like pressure to always be positive or pressure to always be high vibrational or or any of that, pressure to always be enlightened. But what happens when people stop being human in order to appear spiritual?

SPEAKER_00 21:18

Right, right. And that there's always one more meditation that you can do, or one more thing that you can do, you know, it it it it really you really have to kind of tune into yourself enough to know are you doing that to yourself? Are you always feeling like you're not doing enough? You know, and that's that's really important, you know, because also feeling your feelings is an important thing, even if your feelings can be shitty at times. You know, we talk about being positive, but toxic positivity can suppress emotions because you don't feel safe feeling anger, rage. Even disappointment. And all those feelings are so natural. And truly, the only thing that feelings want is to be labeled, to be named, to be seen. You know, the neuroscientists have a saying, name it to tame it. So when something happens and I feel angry, enough is to go, wow, that made me angry. I don't have to react in an angry way. I don't have to act in an angry way. I can just name it.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:30

And humans are going to experience all kinds of emotions.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

Absolutely. Absolutely. And you know, we've talked also about talking about spirituality, that spiritual bypassing avoids the necessary healing work when we feel like we've evolved. And I've heard so many people, so many, but through the years, I don't feel anger anymore. I'm evolved, as if anger is this four-letter word that we should never feel.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

Right, right. I mean, really, and anger and grief and sadness are normal.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

Absolutely, absolutely. You know, emotional avoidance delays this growth that we're all wanting. You know, but we have a sense in our society, I think, that the less emotional we are, the more healed we are. You know, I've heard I've heard people say, well, that didn't even upset me. And it was something like egregious like, really? That didn't upset you? You know, because it would be natural for someone to feel upset. Again, then we choose how we want to respond to it, and no response is a response.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 23:33

But we can't control our feelings. If we're not feeling, that means that we're suppressing them. We can't control our reactions. Not that easy, but we can. But we can't control how we feel.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:48

You know, it's interesting. I had um uh like a difficult season, I would say, from probably last October till well, probably all the way through until the end of May, actually. I even a couple months or a couple of weeks after that, probably till mid-June. So probably for a good six months, I would say. And you know, it wasn't that I'm always I always go into a um uh what would I call it, a spiritual space of knowing that whatever it is I'm going through, I I will come out of that on the other end. I have personal, you know, family situations. If you think you're enlightened, check out your family. And um I had that, and then I got then I had um, what did I have? Shingles, and then my dog died, and it was like, whoa, that seemed like you know, one, two, three, a lot of big things for me that had happened, but it being spiritual doesn't mean that I avoid the experience, right? Right, it just meant literally it meant that I was present with it, and I did talk a lot about it, you know, but it it it's a real thing, and I don't care who you are, you're always going to have situations. You're you're having experiences on earth.

SPEAKER_00 25:05

Absolutely, absolutely. And being spiritual doesn't mean that you avoid the experience because I'm supposed to be going through this. You still feel it because we're human, just as you said, we're we're human in this lifetime, and many people who I'm gonna say it like this, fancy themselves as very spiritual, are still human in this lifetime and still have experienced trauma and still need to heal that trauma, heal those wounds.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

For sure. Yeah, for sure. But it's interesting because you cannot avoid certain situations. No, you know, you just deal with it. And you know, for me, I will say that what got me through all of that was my spiritual belief.

SPEAKER_00 25:48

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

That that always gets me through things. So why are we so exhausted? I think one of the biggest epidemics today isn't maybe not be depression, but it may be emotional exhaustion. I think people are tired, and I think they're tired of analyzing and tired of fixing and tired of performing and tired of carrying the pressure to become their highest self, you know, every day. But what if healing isn't another thing on your to-do list?

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Right, right, yeah. You know, sometimes, you know, the famous Freud and we we actually don't know if he actually said this or not, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, you know, and sometimes we just have to go through it and feel it, you know. Chronic self-monitoring can create fatigue. That can be exhausting if I'm constantly monitoring how am I feeling, what's affecting me, what isn't affecting me, where are my triggers, you know, that can that that can be exhausting too.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Yeah, you know, perfectionism, Shirley.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Well, that increases stress too. I mean, that's just kind of something that that sets you up to fail because we can never reach perfectionism. In fact, you know what perfect is is being imperfect.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

There you go.

SPEAKER_00 27:02

You know, I mean, without sounding cliche or what's that? It was a beautiful song from uh I don't know, I don't listen to contemporary music, but what was his name? He he sang it to his wife, and the video was on a piano, and he said, I love your imperfections. Oh, what's his name? I have his face in my mind, but I can't remember. I'm sure one of our listeners will know who it is. But yeah, I think I think that is that is the goal to allow yourself to be imperfect.

SPEAKER_01 27:36

Yeah, absolutely, you know, and you know, play, support healing, you know, play.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I think I've shared with you before that I went one time, you know, before COVID, to a three-day workshop, three days on the neurobiology of play. Because play is so important. Now, adult play is going to look different than than childhood play, of course, but to have that kind of an easiness, a lightness.

SPEAKER_01 28:07

Yeah, you know. What would you say about integration during those times? Is that like does that happen a lot when you're in those kind of states of mind?

SPEAKER_00 28:17

Well, in what kind of states of mind?

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Like joy or plane on the word plane.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

Yes, that that helps with integration. Integration also happens when you're able to reflect again, is what we're talking about in this episode, to be able to reflect how far have I come? Yeah, what do I like about myself? What wounds have I healed? What doesn't trigger me as much? Right, you know, and that bringing that up and really acknowledging that helps with integration.

SPEAKER_01 28:51

Oh, it does. And you know, the you know, the loneliness that nobody really talks about, but we have more access to information than ever before. And yet people feel profoundly alone. I had so many clients that will tell me I'm just lonely. Um but we do we feel more connected nowadays, Shirley, because we have yeah, there's so many places to connect.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Yeah, I mean, yes and no. We feel connected when we're on, you know, social media and we read a post that really, you know, goes along with what I'm feeling, and so I feel a connection there because somebody out there is feeling it too. So it creates, it does create a feeling of connection, you know, but interaction, being with people, that's what really creates connection. That's what really gives you connection because you're in front of each other, there's energies flowing back and forth.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

The song you were thinking of was um by John Legend. Yes, yeah, all of me. Yes, yes, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 30:00

Right, I figured it was one of our listeners. I knew somebody would know what that is. Thank you very much, but yeah, it's a beautiful song. But yeah, community supports emotional health. You know, sometimes we tend to isolate, and people, for example, like me, who are avoidant attachment, shy, and an introvert, tend to isolate. So I actually put it in my schedule to do things with people. Not that I don't enjoy socializing and being with people, but it's very easy for me to just stay home.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

You really do what exactly what you just said. You actually go out. In fact, I know you're gonna have you have a dinner plan tonight, even. I mean, you do plan things.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

I do, I plan things very purposefully because I know from a neuros from a neurobiological standpoint that being in the same room with someone, okay, you know, is so important to feel connected. You know, video always helps when we have that, thankfully, during COVID, right? And of course, I feel connected to you as I'm is I'm looking at you, but it's not a hundred percent the same as being in the same, sharing the same space with someone.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

It's so true, Shirley. And maybe really what people need now is not just another self-help book, although Shirley and I have one coming out. Um, but it's more of a guide. It's it's a good guide too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But maybe as you just said, dinner with a friend. Exactly, exactly. Yeah, a community or somebody who says, you know, I see you.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Exactly, exactly. Because being, you know, relationships help regulate the nervous system. So when you're in connection with someone, your nervous system regulates.

SPEAKER_01 31:39

So, Shirley, I'll ask you the question. What do you like about yourself? I want everybody to think about this.

SPEAKER_00 31:46

Well, that's a hard question to answer. It is a very hard question to answer, and you're putting me on the spot, Kel.

SPEAKER_01 31:54

I'm sorry. I'm just kind of curious because I want everybody to have that experience of thinking it as Shirley's thinking about it, and they're all like this, well, what is it, Cheryl? What is it that you like about yourself? I think it's such an important one.

SPEAKER_00 32:07

It really, really is. It really is. And I would really encourage everyone to kind of jot that out at night. Maybe at the end of the night, what do I like about myself? And I think the first thing that comes to mind as you said that is I think I really like my curiosity. For sure. I've always been very curious, always wanting to understand things. And I think I really do. Sometimes it gets me in trouble. You know, what's the expression curiosity killed the cat? That is so true. But but it is something that I do like about myself. Yeah. Yeah. What about you, Kel? What do you like about yourself?

SPEAKER_01 32:47

You know, as as I asked you the question, I said, Oh dear, I guess I'm you know that question was coming back. Um if I I let's that's a that's a tough one. It's a tough one to answer. I think what I like about myself the best is um I like to be really creative, and I feel like I can be creative. I don't know if that's the right answer at this moment. Well, you creativity, and I'll tell you the other one, the thing I love about myself, and I do love this. I I love fiercely.

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Yes, you that I do. You absolutely do.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

I'm gonna make a list. Everybody make a list.

SPEAKER_00 33:24

Yeah, yeah. I think it's a wonderful idea. It really kind of switches us from that negativity bias into something positive. And if what comes to mind is what you still want to work on, because that did come to mind in my mind a moment ago, no, okay, that's the negativity bias. And that's a wonderful thing to know and to understand. What do I still want to work on? But then bring yourself back here. But what do I like about myself now? Currently, who I am currently.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

So the next question you guys can ask about yourself is what are you still trying to fix about yourself? Yeah, yeah. What are you still trying to fix about yourself? Now, again, show and I will say that you know, healing is an ongoing thing. Yeah, but are you living? Are you living? And what is it that you still feel that you need to work on? And it could be a million things, yeah, yeah. You might say, hey, you know what, I've done a good job right now. I think I'm cool right now.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

Right, right. And what I would add to that is what are you still trying to fix about yourself? Yes, and what should you start to learn to accept about yourself and not want to fix, not always looking for the fix.

SPEAKER_01 34:46

Right, right. The acceptance is so big, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

And in of course, in our society, a big one is acceptance of our own body, right? Yeah, that's a big one, or sometimes it could be your emotions, yeah. That term, that ridiculous term, too sensitive, T-O-O. There's no such thing as that, you know. So, except maybe if you are a very sensitive soul. Temperament is which is actually what you sent me, you know, today, Kelly, to take a look at. We're temperament is something that we're born with. Some kids are very, very sensitive to noise in environment, some kids aren't. But it's a nervous system issue. It's not because you're TOO sensitive. So maybe accepting your level of sensitivity, maybe learning how to regulate your emotions when you don't want to be, you know, up here and learning how to do that, that's different. Right accepting your sensitivity is an important one.

SPEAKER_01 35:47

Well, and maybe you it's your past. Maybe it's pressing funny. We're in Mercury retrograde right now, and I think it's gonna be a doozy. And what happens during Mercury retrograde, our past comes back up. People from our past come back, things from the past tend to come up. So it lets, you know, is there something about your past that you need to move forward with or you haven't accepted, or you know, any of that? And surely maybe it's relationships. People get stuck in relationships, yeah. It's the version of yourself that you thought you would be by now.

unknown 36:26

Right.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

You know, when you're young, you project out, well, this age, I'm gonna this, this.

SPEAKER_00 36:31

Right, right. Yeah, I just had that conversation today, right? And being able, yeah, and being in there always focused on where what they hadn't accomplished yet, instead of, but what have you accomplished?

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Right, right. Well, and on the other side, when we get to the other side and we do a life review, really what the guides are looking for is you know, what did you learn on this trip? It's not the micro focus on it's what did you learn? You know, did you learn acceptance? Did you learn to love yourself? Yay!

SPEAKER_00 37:04

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And that's I think where your work is so so important is helping people understand their sole purpose so they can get to that place of working through what they came here to work through.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

Exactly. I mean, did you learn compassion? You know, did you learn some kindness along the way? Yeah, whoo, you know, right, right. What if if the person that you've been fighting with all of these years is actually you?

SPEAKER_00 37:33

Exactly. Wow. Wow, right? And and what if you also notice this came up today too, is that the way that you treat yourself, you know, you're you're doing to yourself where maybe a parent left off. If you had a very critical mother or a very abusive father, and you start to, without knowing it, because we're on autopilot, I call it emotional autopilot, without realizing it, we're doing the same to ourselves. So we're just taking over where the parent left off. And do we want to do that to ourselves? You know, is that something that you truly, if you think about it in those terms, is it something that you truly want to do? Because that is something that we can shift. Yeah, it's not easy, but we can shift that. Yeah, yeah. Is you know, so much research shows that self-compassion is strongly associated with psychological well-being.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

You know, that makes sense. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 38:34

Yeah, yeah. Part of us feeling better is to have self-compassion, to have compassion for that little kid that didn't get what she or he needed.

SPEAKER_01 38:43

Right, right. I think self-compassion is should be number one.

SPEAKER_00 38:47

Absolutely, absolutely. And and some people actually have used this term, well, I'm being selfish now and I'm just thinking about myself. And we need to take the word selfish out of the dictionary, you know, out of our vocabulary. Unless, of course, we're talking about someone who's narcissistic. Selfishness is part of the dynamic, right? Yeah, when we think about ourselves, when we have compassion for ourselves, there's absolutely nothing selfish about that. Yeah, it's actually so healthy, you know.

SPEAKER_01 39:14

And on earth, we will all go through challenging times. We came to earth for challenges. And I know you're thinking, no, I didn't sign up for this. Yes, yes, yes, you did. Yes, you did.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

Exactly, exactly. And notice also, you know, our level of shame, because that's a big shame people so stuck, Shirley. Oh my god, we get so stuck in shame of what happened to us, and that's part of where self-compassion can come and help heal the shame. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

Well, and that could be why people keep going trying to heal that and heal that and heal that. Um and to, you know, working on shame is a big one, but people do get stuck possibly longer than the original wound, even. Right, right, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

With shame, well, because shame is one of the most painful emotions to feel. Shame, you know, guilt is when we're embarrassed when we feel bad about an action, a behavior that we did. Shame is feeling bad about who we are, our existence is feeling like there's something wrong with not a behavior, but with who we are, and that is deep.

SPEAKER_01 40:32

Right, right, right. What about patience, Shirley? Is patience something that uh holds people back because they're maybe less patience, they don't have patience?

SPEAKER_00 40:46

Well, patience is an important factor, it goes along with like slowing things down, being patient with yourself. If you're not where you want to be just yet, can that be okay? You know, knowing that this is where you want to get to. So have patience. Patience, I see it as part of patience with others, patience with ourselves, I see as part of self-compassion and compassion.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

Yeah. Oh, I like that. Yeah, I like that.

SPEAKER_00 41:12

Yeah, yeah. You know, I had a mindful meditation teacher once teach me these two sayings that were just so they really kind of, you know, when you hear something and your mind goes, and it just kind of right. So he said, he said, I'm gonna ask you a question. You know, I remember he put us into a meditation, and you know, meditation is associated with you're supposed to feel calm and peaceful, right? And I go into the meditation and I start to get unbelievably anxious. And so then he says, Let me ask a question. Can I be okay with what I'm noticing in this moment? And I remember thinking to myself, no, I can't, because I'm supposed to feel calm and I'm feeling anxious. And he goes, and if the answer is no, then let me let me suggest this question. Can I be okay with not feeling okay in this moment? So the point was being okay with wherever you are in this moment, even if it's not exactly where you want to be.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

I love that. This was years ago. This might have been, I don't know, call it 20 years ago, and I've never forgotten it. I've never forgotten his gentleness and and how it just kind of sparked something in my brain that was just so life-changing.

SPEAKER_01 42:36

Well, it went right to the brain where you needed it.

unknown 42:39

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 42:40

That one, you know, we have a dear friend Dwayne, our Dwayne Largen. Oh, love Dwayne. Healer, great healer, and he made a great comment. He said, Healing isn't always about becoming someone new, right? It's about returning to your natural state you've always been.

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Oh, that is so beautiful. Thank you, Dwayne, because it's so true. Babies are born with an open heart to love and feel love, you know, and so that's the that's returning to that.

SPEAKER_01 43:14

Right. Yeah. Shirley, talk about what some of the greatest misconceptions about healing.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

Well, I think one of the greatest misconceptions is that we need to eliminate every wound, every insecurity, every difficult emotion, everything that we feel that doesn't that isn't that doesn't feel good, you know? And again, that aligns with perfectionism. That's just not human. We're we're messy. We're sloppy, we're messy. Again, the goal isn't perfection. It's it's to be able to have awareness and to own when I mess up, to be able to say, wow, I am so sorry. I messed up. You know, and that can be so powerful. And let me give you a little in. On a neurobiology trick. When you mess up, if you repair right away, the person that you messed up on is going to remember the repair more than what the mess up was. Very true. And that's because the repair, when someone can actually own it, oh wow, I am so sorry I called you that. I was just really angry. And not even I was just really angry. That's I am so sorry that I said that to you. The other person's nervous system goes right. And that repair will stay with them if you do it right away.

SPEAKER_01 44:35

I had a situation like that in grad school where one of my cohorts, a member of my cohort in grad school, and I had a complete disagreement on how to handle a situation with a client. And it was, it was literally, we almost came to fist to cuffs, as they say, between the two of us. It was a, I had my way of doing it, and he had his way of doing it. And I think his right way was way incorrect. But uh, we kind of blew up at each other. And as I was driving later on, the phone rang and it was him. And he said, Look, I really thought about what you said, and I really did F up. He said, I cannot believe I went into that arena of it. And it was the first time that anybody had apologized to me like that. Wow, it was so deep and so feeling, so it was really it's very reparative. If you can get that, it's extraordinary.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

Yeah, it it's reparative on so many different levels because in that moment you also felt seen. Oh, completely, you know, and validated. And again, that's at the core of attachment.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

Yeah, yeah. And it's funny how one repair could repair all kinds of things that had gone on in your life. I mean, and I think that the universe does give us those moments to have those situations because it's almost like every synapse kind of in me at that moment kind of went and fired off. And I just it was kind of what you just said. I felt like at peace. Not because I was right, it had nothing to do with that. It was was such a it was a really radical situation. It just felt so, I don't know, restorative.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

Right, right. Because it's not about you were right and I was wrong, and sometimes that may be, but but it's about I am sorry about what I did. I am owning what I did. That's the repair piece, right, right. It doesn't matter who's right or who's wrong, but when I do a misstep, when I when I you know, when I lose it, when I say things that that um you know that that are not okay, that are hurtful, right, right. To repair that piece, that's the important piece.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

I'd like to ask the audience, you guys, what are you tired of trying to fix about yourself? Or what would change in your life if you truly believed you weren't broken? Those are two wonderful questions. I think there are a lot of people that need to hear that they're not alone tonight with that.

SPEAKER_00 47:05

Absolutely, absolutely, because keeping in mind that the ability to hold all parts of ourselves without shame is healing. Yes, you know, we can define healing under that. It's not about you know uh healing all the wounds and all never getting triggered and that kind of thing, it's the ability to hold all the parts of ourselves without shame, knowing that there are some shitty parts at times, knowing that there are some wonderful things, knowing all of it.

SPEAKER_01 47:35

Yeah, yeah. And and while you're sharing, if you could, if you'd like to, you know, share with us something that you would, you know, that if you're tired of trying to fix about yourself, let us know in the comments. But um Shirley, before we close, I think this is important, and you've spent decades studying psychology and helping people heal. Has there ever been a time in your own life when all the knowledge in the world couldn't protect you from being human?

SPEAKER_00 48:04

Oh god, yeah. Yesterday. I was gonna say yesterday today. Oh, absolutely. I mean, you know, just even even, oh my gosh, with with my own daughter, especially when I was going to all the neurobiology courses and understanding, you know, how yelling affects, you know, a child's brain because the auditory processing centers are right next to the amygdala, and the amygdala is the threat detector of the brain, and I would think, oh my god, and I yelled at Sid the other day, and I would just go home and want to repair so much. So, yeah, I mean, we're all human. The the the important thing is the repair. I hope that I've gotten much better in repair. Yeah. In repairing when I mess up and being able to own it without shame.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

You're actually really good about that. Thank you, Cal. Really super good about that. Um somebody is is suggesting they struggle with people who worry too much, and that can be draining. What do you say to somebody who worries too much? And I had that actually situation today. I had that surely, I didn't even get a chance to tell you. Uh, somebody was so worried about one thing, and then we calmed that area down of, and then it was the wildest thing. It went into some explosion of worry about topics that came out of nowhere.

SPEAKER_02 49:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

Wildest thing. So I just said in my case, I said in Margaret, I set a boundary and I said, All right, I gotta go now.

SPEAKER_00 49:35

Right, right. Well, worrying is about what's underneath worry is anxiety, and anxiety is fear. And so if someone is always worrying, then that lets me know that that maybe their childhood didn't feel safe, that it was, you know, that it felt unsafe. And so you learn to just when nothing feels safe, you worry. You either worry about future stuff or you worry about past stuff, you know, and so grounding can help, certainly working through the anxiety piece. There's a lot of wonderful somatic exercises that you can look up on YouTube for worrying to you know, to to to help calm the nervous system down, you know, so the worry isn't always there, but worry is is is anxiety.

SPEAKER_01 50:20

Yeah, it it is. Yeah, and when people do repair, Shirley, what is the best way to do repair if they're beating themselves up over uh uh I don't know, eating badly, or if they're you know, lack of exercise, they're not taking care of themselves.

SPEAKER_00 50:38

Well, you know, I mean, uh ultimately, and I know this is more left-brained thinking, but ultimately it comes to a choice. Do I want to beat myself up about that over and over and over again and add more stress to my life? Because now I'm just adding more stress to my life, or do I want to view myself with compassion and say, it's okay. Today you didn't exercise, tomorrow's a new day. I still love you.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

I love that. That's very good. That's very good. And let's talk about control situations. Uh, people that are delight to control. So, and they're tired of trying to control.

SPEAKER_00 51:14

Yeah, well, that that would, I would wonder if they felt so out of control as a little kid. Ah, okay. Where life wasn't, you know, no one had the reins of life. You know, as a little kid, you expect your parents to have it under control so you can feel, you know. But when you feel out of control as a kid, then you can overcorrect and be really into control because otherwise the world doesn't feel safe.

SPEAKER_02 51:40

Right, right.

SPEAKER_00 51:41

And so that would be something again to explore in therapy. That might be something to notice what you need, you know, just something small, maybe something small by eight o'clock. I need to have this done. Well, wait until eight. Oh, two. We'll see what happens. You know, you can just kind of notice. Tune in, notice your nervous system, it's probably gonna do this. Know that it'll pass because when it gets here is when we want to shut it down, and then we'll do whatever we didn't do at eight, right? Wait until it comes. And that will start to help reduce the need for control little by little.

SPEAKER_01 52:20

Wow. Well, and just remember everybody, maybe healing is remembering the person who existed before the fear that convinced you that you were broken. So, you know, maybe healing isn't another mountain to climb, and maybe it's finally putting down that backpack that you've been carrying.

SPEAKER_00 52:38

Right, exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 52:40

Maybe awareness isn't the destination, but maybe awareness is simply the doorway back to yourself.

SPEAKER_00 52:47

Absolutely, absolutely, because healing isn't measured by how much you've analyzed yourself, you know, it's measured by how fully you're able to participate in life, even with your imperfections.

SPEAKER_01 52:58

Yeah, right, right. So maybe the question is for everybody when do I start living?

SPEAKER_00 53:05

Right there we go. That's a wonderful, or what have I done today to live?

SPEAKER_01 53:09

Oh, I like that too. Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah. I think that's a great thing. When do I start living? Right because life is happening now, yeah, exactly. It just is, and so you don't have to nobody is perfectly healed. You don't, it's not after you fix every wound, yeah, it's not after you've figured everything out, right?

SPEAKER_00 53:30

Right. It's not even a goal to fix every wound and to be fully healed.

SPEAKER_01 53:35

I mean, it's really giving yourself permission to be fully alive before you feel feel fully healed. Yeah, just be alive, feel alive, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:45

You know, there's this beautiful thing that Dr. Peter Levine always talks about. It's a Japanese tradition where if a bowl breaks, if it has cracks in it, they fill it with gold, yeah, you know, and they consider the bull even more beautiful, beautiful, yeah, you know, with these cracks that are filled with gold. And that's kind of a symbolic almost or a metaphor summary of what we've been talking about today.

SPEAKER_01 54:10

So true. Because remember, everybody, you are not your trauma, you are not your diagnosis, you are not your wounds, you are not your mistakes, you are not the hardest thing that you've ever been through. You are so, so much more than all of that. And maybe healing isn't about becoming someone else, it's be it's as Dwayne says, like coming home to yourself. Yes, everybody, thanks for joining us today on Psychology and the Soul. We will be back. Shirley and I are taking a July month off. In fact, I'm going to be visiting Shirley. Yay, I know.

SPEAKER_00 54:49

I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_01 54:51

So because I love Fiercely and I'm so excited to go. Yes, so excited. I love that. Oh my God, I can't wait. We're gonna be creative and we're gonna do some fun stuff, Shirley, next week. And um, we will be back on August 4th. But please join me on this Thursday for Ask Me Anything because I will be doing the Vedic astrology for the month of July, and we'll be talking about that. And also my calendar, I still have a few sessions left. Uh I have sessions left for July. Now that we're in July, I have so I will be traveling, but please go to my kellywhite.com and you can find uh times in there and please sign up for a session with me. Yeah, all right. Shirley, thank you for everything. Oh, thank you. I'm gonna see you very soon.

SPEAKER_00 55:35

Yes, yes. I love you fiercely too. I love you fiercely too. Goodbye, everybody. Goodbye, everybody. Yes, thank you for watching. Bye-bye.